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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What would you say to a simple person that’s nice, but honestly thinks the world is equal?

54 replies

LardLizard · 05/09/2018 12:06

Help me explain to this person please

OP posts:
AssassinatedBeauty · 06/09/2018 00:00

Or not! Because that would be a very odd thing to fixate on.

The Fawcett society usually has lots of useful facts and figures that you might find helpful, LardLizard.

speakingwoman · 06/09/2018 00:05

1 men are on average bigger and stronger
2 women are vulnerable esp when giving birth
3 these things make a difference

AllDayBreakfast · 06/09/2018 00:52

I don't want to derail this thread but want to give some context to my previous post. It's often stated that men come on here to patronisingly 'educate' the regulars or tell them they're feministing wrong. Posters often say "what's it got to do with us women? Why don't you go and set up a men's charity if you're so desperate to help?" etc.

My point is that we have a situation where 4x as many men are currently killing themselves than women and evidently struggle to discuss it for the reasons previously discussed. I think few things could be more harmful to a vulnerable suicidal male than being told "suck it up mate, at least you don't have it as bad as women!" This will only alienate such individuals and it is a sad thing to see people actively trying to convince others that men have it so easy (rather than focusing on helping their own sex - ironically what people like me are told to do rather than challenge this harmful dialogue).

This attitude of 'men don't need help' has already led to various supportive events being cancelled. A good example is International Mens Day, which was going to focus on male suicide amongst other things. York University cancelled the event, despite a male student having committed suicide only days before, and the impetus was a 200 signature petition which was submitted in protest of the event - and they refused to reinstate it after a several thousand signature petition called for it to be rescheduled. Their official statement was that "we have withdrawn the original statement about International Men’s Day, and do not propose to mark this event formally. In gender equality, our main focus has been, and will continue to be, on the inequalities faced by women." And this in spite of them already celebrating Internation Women's Day and having a feminist society.

Another example is the politician Jess Phillips literally scoffing at a male MP's suggestion to celebrate this day. She commented that she was the only woman in the room and that "every day is International Men's Day" as her argument. I find it a bit unfathomable that she thinks these wealthy MPs are any reflection whatsoever of the general male population's lifestyle or bear any similarity to the many men taking their own lives every week - you could say "every week is Men's Suicide Week".

I really think that the above two examples of brushing aside well publicised events aimed at tackling male suicide just give the message that it's not important, and this is further compounded by spreading the falsehood that 'men have it easy'.

And watch how quickly I'm branded a misogynist/MRA for daring to say this.

AssassinatedBeauty · 06/09/2018 01:07

Those are very clear and straightforward points speakingwoman.

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 06/09/2018 01:10

See @AllDayBreakfast I think it's toxic masculinity that causes the outrageously high levels of male suicide. Men are taught by other men to hide their emotions and not access help. Feminism challenges this, by challenging gender stereotypes. But it's not the primary aim of feminism, and actually that's ok.

Women and men also attempt suicide at roughly the same rates, men are more 'successful' because they choose more violent methods. Again, I'd put that down to toxic masculinity.

Op to answer your question (or perhaps to give you some insight as to where this person is coming from): I read this McKinsey report earlier that stated over 50% of men and 30% of women think their company has equal representation when 10% of the leaders are female. So to put that another way, just one female leader in ten is enough to make most people think that their work-world is fair and equal.

AllDayBreakfast · 06/09/2018 01:21

LordVonny.

I agree with your point about toxic masculinity but I still can't fathom why sone feminists actively try and block events intended to help men - there are quite a few other examples.

And without meaning to be combative, your point about female leaders further demonstrates to me the differing challenges men and women face. Women are facing a lack of female leaders (which does need to be addressed no doubt) and men are facing a mass epidemic of suicide.

Worrying about being a CEO is probably the last thing on a suicidal male's mind.

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 06/09/2018 01:35

Well women are also facing an epidemic of sexual violence, the increasing pornification of society and FGM. But I offered an example for someone whom the Op has categorised as gentle, not an example to counter your point about male suicide.

thebewilderness · 06/09/2018 02:27

I don't want to derail this thread but Men kill people a lot, including themselves.
We noticed, d00d, we noticed.
Male violence is the greatest human rights crisis the world has ever known.

ShamelesslyPlacemarking · 06/09/2018 02:34

@AllDayBreakfast Suicide is a society-wide issue. You're aware, I'm sure that despite male suicides being 4x higher than female suicides, female suicide attempts are typically twice as high as male attempts?

The high male rate is a reflection of more lethal methods, not that suicide is a particularly "male" problem. To reduce suicide, we need to look at the reasons both men and women are suffering such poor mental health.

AllDayBreakfast · 06/09/2018 05:11

an epidemic of sexual violence, the increasing pornification of society and FGM.

As a.white; English, male I can't speak to the FGM bit (I would predict that this is as much a ethnicity/religious based issue as it is a sex/gender one). Regarding the 'pornification' of society, we disussed this on another thread a few days ago - data released by the world's biggest porn provider has suggested that women are over 100% more likely to search for violent porn than men, so it's definitely an interesting question as to why this is.

Men kill people a lot, including themselves.

I'm not sure that statistically two men out of many million committing murder each week is a lot, and the figures suggest that we are 42x more likely to kill ourselves than to kill women. However, this of course is still two women too many.

The question is how do we stop domestic incidents turning lethal? As I type this, there are dozens (hundreds?) of couples screaming at each other, drugs/alcohol involved in some cases, and on the verge of escalation into physical violence (from which the woman will nearly always fare worst).

PyeWackets · 06/09/2018 06:46

So you think violent porn is being made for women allday?...because a...porn provider told you???? oooooooooooookkkkkkkkkkkkk......

Zoflorabore · 06/09/2018 06:52

If someone is as you describe "simple" ( I don't like that description but hey ho ) then surely they may not even understand what you're trying to say to them op?

I get that you want to help but unless it will majorly impact on their life or quality of life then I would leave well alone.

It's fine to have an opinion of course but quite different to sit someone down and spell out what you want them to understand.

If this was for a child then I would fully understand. My 15yr old has Aspergers and sometimes I have to point out the most "simple" things to him even though he is on track to put me to shame with his GCSE results next year.
There are different levels of intelligence and just because someone appears "simple" it doesn't mean that they are inferior in any way ( and I'm not implying you said that ).

NotTakenUsername · 06/09/2018 06:59

“Sorry I’m so horrible that I call my friends simple on online forums. I really need to consider how I treat my friends. Tea or coffee?”

Would that work?

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 06/09/2018 07:01

What about all the studies that show women still do the vast majority of housework and childcare, even when they also have full time jobs outside the home?. Huge inequality. Loads of studies, all showing the same thing, here's one
www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/20/australian-women-spend-twice-as-much-time-on-childcare-and-chores-than-men
And just because it's so good:
www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/26/gender-wars-household-chores-comic

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 06/09/2018 08:40

As a white; English, male I can't speak to the FGM bit (I would predict that this is as much a ethnicity/religious based issue as it is a sex/gender one).

Handy hint: if it isn't happening to men, it's a sex/gender issue. FFS.

Do your suicide numbers exclude men who murder their partners and children and then kill themselves? Because the fucks I give about that are zero.

AllDayBreakfast · 06/09/2018 10:20

So you think violent porn is being made for women allday?...because a...porn provider told you???? oooooooooooookkkkkkkkkkkkk......

You can try and undermine the evidence because you don't like it, but the fact is that the biggest porn website in the world analysed their user data and found that women were searching for degrading porn. Remember, most women aren't radical feminists even if they support gender equality and being dominated consistently ranks in surveys about female fantasies - thus explaining the huge popularity of 50 Shades of Grey.

UpstartCrow · 06/09/2018 10:30

Female socialisation is a hell of a drug.

AllDayBreakfast · 06/09/2018 10:41

Handy hint: if it isn't happening to men, it's a sex/gender issue. FFS.

Maybe you should've read my post more thoroughly. Wink

I said it's as much a religious issue as it is a sex one. I know you'd prefer to be able to malign all men over it, but I'll bet you can't find an example of a white, Christian male committing religious FGM against a woman - it's only men that get their genitals cut in 'Western' society, which has been shown to have a myriad of issues and is usually done non-censensually to an infant.

UpstartCrow · 06/09/2018 10:46

''female circumcision is practiced among Christians across Africa,''
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4064295/

To be fair, forced marriage to underage girls and child rape is more the go to abuse amongst white Christian males.

Standbyyourmammaryglands · 06/09/2018 10:49

Nothing

You can’t argue with stupid

UpstartCrow · 06/09/2018 10:54

'Simple' doesn't mean 'stupid' Angry

MyRelationshipIsWeird · 06/09/2018 11:03

Once you have your eyes open to it, you can’t unsee it. Do your friend a favour and leave well alone. It must be nice to live in ignorance!

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 06/09/2018 11:39

Thanks Upstart for that link.

It's also pretty clear that FGM is a 'Western' issue as it's happening to women and girls who live right here, in the UK. But the whataboutery is strong in AllDayBreakfast, which is fine. I'll centre my activism and energy on women and girls, proud to do so. AllDay is of course free to centre their's wherever they wish.

AllDayBreakfast · 06/09/2018 12:57

''female circumcision is practiced among Christians across Africa,''

White Christians?

I agree that what happens in the UK becomes a 'Western' problem, but it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that the average white British male is chopping off women's genitalia.

It's undoubtedly still a serious issue needing resolved, but I'm in no way responsible for it simply by virtue of being male.

OlennasWimple · 06/09/2018 19:31

There are more male MPs in the current Parliament than there have been female MPs in the whole history of the UK Parliament

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