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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Public Health England don't understand fundamental biology

26 replies

NotAnotherJaffaCake · 04/09/2018 10:46

PHE's new Heart Age calculator asks users for your gender.

t.co/Km0zJQKQqd

Given that heart disease is the leading cause of death in women, and presents differently in women than men (to the point where women are dying because they are expecting their heart attacks to conform to those experienced by males), then why the holy fuck are a major public body screwing up basic biology in a campaign that supposedly is trying to prevent avoidable deaths?

And if they can't get biology right here, what else are they screwing up?

Some more info about heart attacks in women:
www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/heart-matters-magazine/medical/women/heart-disease-in-older-women

Not brave enough to tweet under my real name. Yet.

OP posts:
Original poster
NotAnotherJaffaCake · 04/09/2018 10:46

Sorry, clickly links:

t.co/Km0zJQKQqd

www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/heart-matters-magazine/medical/women/heart-disease-in-older-women

OP posts:
HavingALittleBabyToolshed · 04/09/2018 11:09

I noticed the other day at work, when looking up something to do with STI diagnosis rates, that the document was entitled something like “STI diagnosis rates in England by gender” but was broken down by sex in the tables. Further reading told me “Female” included “transgender (trans) women” and similar for “Male”.
Which kind of begs the question “why is this document needed?”

reallybadidea · 04/09/2018 11:16

From the linked tool itself:

"If you are transgender or intersex, select your gender assignment at birth to complete the assessment, but discuss the result with your GP for a more personal interpretation."

Whats wrong with that?

VickyEadie · 04/09/2018 11:45

That NHS heart 'tool' seems to suggest that you should 'know' your cholesterol and blood pressure at any given moment in time. I've had mine done, obviously, but not for about a year in the case of blood pressure and a couple of years in the case of cholesterol. I can't remember what either measurement was in order to input it into the calculator.

As getting an appointment at your local surgery is often difficult when you're really poorly, ringing them up because "that heart age thingy told me I should' might irritate the staff there a tad...

jellyfrizz · 04/09/2018 11:45

"If you are transgender or intersex, select your gender assignment at birth to complete the assessment, but discuss the result with your GP for a more personal interpretation."

Whats wrong with that?

People aren't assigned a gender at birth; their sex is recorded.

FanWithoutAGuard · 04/09/2018 11:49

"If you are transgender or intersex, select your gender assignment at birth to complete the assessment, but discuss the result with your GP for a more personal interpretation."

Whats wrong with that?

Wouldn't it have been easier to just put 'sex' then? Since it turns out that's what matters in this tool, as the note makes clear, sex not gender?

jellyfrizz · 04/09/2018 11:52

Wouldn't it have been easier to just put 'sex' then? Since it turns out that's what matters in this tool, as the note makes clear, sex not gender?

Is there anything that gender actually matters for other than pronouns? Serious question. I can't think of anything.

KissMeBoris · 04/09/2018 11:56

The numbers of transgender women are so small that they would only make a negligible difference to the overall statistics.

reallybadidea · 04/09/2018 12:08

People aren't assigned a gender at birth; their sex is recorded.

I agree with you, but I don't think it actually matters in this context. The point was, presumably, to word it in a way that wasn't off-putting to trans gender people and that made it clear that it is birth gender (or sex) that influences heart disease risk.

reallybadidea · 04/09/2018 12:25

Also the OP seemed to be suggesting that the tool wasn't clear that birth sex was key in determining risk/presentation of heart disease, and that the health of trans gender people was being put at risk as a result. I don't think that is the case.

VickyEadie · 04/09/2018 13:04

Am I the only one certain that some transwomen will understand perfectly well that the tool needs to know your sex to work, but will nonetheless claim to be female when they complete it?

Helmetbymidnight · 04/09/2018 13:09

People aren't assigned a gender at birth; their sex is recorded.
I agree with you, but I don't think it actually matters in this context.

Of course it matters. Why are they getting their facts wrong?

reallybadidea · 04/09/2018 13:16

Why does it matter?

reallybadidea · 04/09/2018 13:18

will nonetheless claim to be female when they complete it?

That's up to them isn't it. This isn't research but a tool for individuals to assess their personal cardiovascular risk.

jellyfrizz · 04/09/2018 13:25

Why does it matter?

Because 'gender' gives no biological information about a person and it's the biological information that's needed to calculate the health risk.

Sex at birth or sex recorded at birth would be a lot clearer.

reallybadidea · 04/09/2018 13:44

It uses the terminology commonly used by the transgender community and so should be perfectly clear to them.

Original poster
NotAnotherJaffaCake · 04/09/2018 13:50

Gender identity has nothing whatsoever to do with cardiovascular risk. In order to accurately predict risk, you need to know sex. Biological sex, which is observed at birth, not assigned. Using factually incorrect and obfuscating language is not appropriate in medical environments. If, as is the case for many medical research trials, they rely on reported data (rather than independent observations), you are going to be completely unable to identify female-specific risk factors.

OP posts:
Helmetbymidnight · 04/09/2018 13:52

Eh, why does it matter that a public health body writes untrue nonsense?

I suppose if you are some kind of nihilist then it doesn't matter, no. To the rest of us, the fact that they are deliberately writing untruths is bizarre. Do they lie constantly or just over transgender issues?

Pythagonal · 04/09/2018 13:55

reallybadidea heart attacks and heart disease present differently in men and women, which is why sex observed at birth is important when discussing them.

www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/conditions/heart-attack/women-and-heart-attacks

reallybadidea · 04/09/2018 13:58

reallybadidea heart attacks and heart disease present differently in men and women, which is why sex observed at birth is important when discussing them.

Yes I know that thanks. The tool asks for gender assigned at birth to ensure that the correct risk is calculated. Whether you agree with the use of gender or not, it's clear what it means in this context.

2010Aussie · 04/09/2018 13:59

Two issues with the online test

  1. It doesn't ask about diet or exercise which make a huge difference to susceptibility to heart disease.
  1. You are expected to know the figures for your blood pressure and cholesterol. If my GP says that they are fine, that's good enough for me.

I don't actually think that's its particularly useful.

reallybadidea · 04/09/2018 14:04

Oh and actually it's not just the presentation of CAD that differs, it is your actual risk of developing it which is affected by your birth sex. This tool is assessing your risk so symptomatic presentation isn't particularly relevant to this thread.

HawkeyeInConfusion · 04/09/2018 16:00

For me the issue is that they are using the term 'gender' where they mean 'sex'. It is giving legitimacy to the philosophy that they are interchangeable when they definitely are not.

It is adding to the confusion.

LadybirdsAreBirds · 04/09/2018 16:06

I identify as an ox and a lion. I am very strong and have the heart of a .... you can guess the rest

thebewilderness · 04/09/2018 20:54

Sex discrimination in violation of the 2010 EA.

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