MPs to decide whether to make misogyny a hate crime

[HavingALittleBabyToolshed]

www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/02/mps-to-decide-whether-make-misogyny-hate-crime?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

MPs will vote this week on whether to make misogyny a hate crime for the first time, as the campaign to compel police forces across the UK to recognise street harassment of women as a hate crime gathers momentum.

I’m a feminist, FesteringCarbuncle, which is why I’m posting on this board. Am I not
allowed a slightly different viewpoint?

Anyway my post isn’t really about men - it’s about the nature of hate crime legislation and how unhelpful it is, whatever the personal characteristic in question.

*NotBadConsidering

Hitting a person at a protest = crime.
Hitting a person at a protest because they’re a woman whose protesting raises a man’s anger at such a thing = hate crime.*

How do you determine this, exactly?

The same way current hate crimes are determined I suppose: the police investigate the motives of the crime.

My Nottingham residing friend reported some street harassment under the pilot and said the police she spoke to were excellent.

No need to drag anyone through the courts for minor crimes though - fines will do!

Think of it as like fly tipping, if you like? After all, wolf whistling and fly tipping are both a selfish person dumping their crap into the world at the expense of others.

Owen Jones has been getting ahead of the game, though: deleting all tweets where he used the epithet, 'TERF'. Not that TERF is a lie, of course.

Pretty sure there are screen shots.

I think it's a good move.

Rather embarrassing but I had to google what the word misogyny meant in my 30's. I'm grateful I never really had to know what it was but I think it's pertinent as I think not many people know what it is. Many misogynistic attitudes and acts are normalised when we are teens and early 20s. Women learn to expect it, men learn it's how you can choose to act unless your moral compass is very astute.

This legislation can't come soon enough imo.

My very confident DD, who works in a very male-dominated environment, was recently cat-called and sexually harassed on the street. But it wasn't a crime because she's a woman.

She was so upset and really shaken by it. It's about time this was a crime too- if she had been gay, trans or BME it would have been.

Not holding out much hope that the old white men who make up the majority of parliament will get it in any way.

I know I am already dedicated to cause of preserving single sex facilities (and sporting categories and accurate crime data recording and the right to political assembly and representation) so I’m not exactly a unbiased observer...

But how anyone can look at the links supplied by various posters to back up multiple assertions about really dubious THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING NOW is utterly beyond me.

It really is like Where’s Wally. It can take a while, but once you’ve seen it, you can’t unsee it.

Oops. That was for the NSPCC thread in AIBU.

Fits here though (and on almost every other thread currently active on FWR!) so I won’t request a deletion

I've looked all over and I CAN'T find the tweet about OJ.

I'm sorry. I should have saved a link, or something.

This is a lesson to me about always providing a reference.

@thecatfromjapan - any help here?

twitter.com/owenjones84/status/793400519909842944?lang=en

arranfan That's great. It shows OJ using TERF.

The exchange I saw was one in which OJ claimed never to have used the term.

Another twitter user then suggested he was deleting old posts where he did

I can't find it. ☹️

Plus an embedded link from a Catherine Bennett piece in Guardian: Bullies everywhere delight in coming up with new insults

Progressive head scratching as to what word might project the same corrective menace as terf (originally a small group’s chosen acronym, now applied at random), seems to have ended officially with this offering from my Guardian colleague, Owen Jones. “If,” he mused last week, “TERF’ [Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist] is unacceptable, let’s just use ‘transphobe’ and ‘transphobic’, problem solved.” Given that this guidance comes from the man who admirably closed down “chav” because it “demonised” the working classes, there seems every chance that “transphobe” will become the approved term for people who think, for instance, that there might be one or two arguments for preserving certain women-only spaces.

The link wouldn't embed in the quotation above, it is: twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/930519263533830145

That's a brilliant letter, Brave and Stunning: thank you for linking to it.

I'd like to send it to Peter Tatchell and the entire Stonewall leadership.

Just-in-cases...

I think in principle it makes sense, but I can see people trying to abuse the new laws. For instance, will somebody who vocally disagrees with feminists be eligible for arrest as a misogynist?

I, personally, am a supporter of female empowerment/equality etc, but I frequently disagree with posters on here and have angered some before.

Not if you're not being misogynist whilst you do it.

And as others have said, you would have to have committed a crime first, before the hate aspect could be considered. It isn't a stand alone thing.

I have some reservations just because we've all seen how the concept of hate crime particularly when it pertains to speech can be weaponised against individuals or groups.

However if all the other protected characteristics are covered against hate crime then it's reasonable to include misogyny also.

And as others have said, you would have to have committed a crime first, before the hate aspect could be considered. It isn't a stand alone thing.

Ah ok (really should do my research).

I pretty much assumed that it was going to legitimise arrest for anti-female 'hate speech, which could be a slippery road.

Also just in case (look at Owen's tweet that Ruth was quote tweeting):

www.theguardian.com/society/commentisfree/2017/nov/19/bullies-everywhere-take-delight-in-coming-up-with-new-insults

Re OJ^

Progressive head scratching as to what word might project the same corrective menace as terf (originally a small group’s chosen acronym, now applied at random), seems to have ended officially with this offering from my Guardian colleague, Owen Jones. “If,” he mused last week, “TERF’ [Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist] is unacceptable, let’s just use ‘transphobe’ and ‘transphobic’, problem solved.” Given that this guidance comes from the man who admirably closed down “chav” because it “demonised” the working classes, there seems every chance that “transphobe” will become the approved term for people who think, for instance, that there might be one or two arguments for preserving certain women-only spaces.

Owen used terf, and not just to discuss its meaning and use. He used it.

I know that some on here are against the idea of having "hate crimes" in principle.

My view is that if we have them, then having the protected characteristics on the list apaart from sex is just a massive fuck you to women.

While this sounds like a good idea, you just know that the first prosecution will be against someone who "misgendered" a man pretending to be a woman.