Workwear is much more of an issue for women than men

[Echobelly]

Had a discussion with DH (which turned into a bit of an argument) where I was saying I was interested in the idea I heard that for women there is no ‘neutral’ outfit that won’t be judged in the workplace one way or another, whereas for men it’s pretty simple in most settings – suit = professional, casual = not trying enough/low status (unless it’s somewhere very casual). He got annoyed because he felt that he saw women wearing what they like at his workplace, whereas guys had to wear suits and the lack of choice pissed him off. I didn’t feel it worth replying that yes, lack of choice/expression for men is an annoyance, but it’s nothing like as bad as having your whole competence sometimes questioned on a small detail of your outfit as can happen with women.

Ask 50 people what they think about the likely work performance of a guy in a dark suit with a sober tie and probably all of them will say ‘He looks professional’ – ask them to comment on a woman in a suit and you’ll probably get a multitude of replies that might question whether she looks ‘distracting’, ‘frumpy’, ‘high maintenance’, ‘low self-worth’, ‘wallflower’ etc depending on some small variances. Yes, women in DH’s office may seem to ‘get away’ with more in what they wear in terms of not being disciplined for it, but maybe more of them are being judged unprofessional, unambitious, flirty etc because of their choices. Whereas men can know where they stand with what they wear, even if it's annoying that it's so limited.

DH suggested that surely ‘neutral’ for a woman would be a dark suit, white shirt and mid heel – I pointed out some people would declare that frumpy, anonymous, low-status, dull, that a woman who dressed like that was undynamic and unambitious. He really did not get it!
So yes, dress expectations for men are irritating, but they are pretty unambiguous and tend not to have serious outcomes, whereas women will always be judged and often taken significantly less seriously on tiny, everyday details of ordinary clothes in a way that will never happen to men unless they happen to be unusually flamboyant.

My workplace has one-uniform-fits-all protective clothing.

When I need a pee, I have to remove the whole bloody lot. And then put the whole bloody lot back on again. The blokes undo a few buttons and are back in no time.

Yeah - gender neutral workwear really works for me and my female colleagues.

Is it just confined to the workplace, or are women more likely to be judged by their clothes than men wherever they are?

If 'mid heel' is neutral, that means he is instantly judging any woman who doesn't wear heels, even if they wear what he would consider completely neutral shoes for a man.

I can't wear heels, so he would presumably see my shoes as a 'statement'.

I think being judged more is the flipside of having more choice.
Leaving aside the workplaces which enforce short skirts/high heels (I don't think any offices do that these days), women can wear almost what they like.
The downside of this is that some people will judge them.
Men have a very narrow range of acceptable office wear, but will only be judged if they fall outside of that.

That's an interesting observation Lancelottie. What would be in your opinion the equivalent for a woman of the man's outfit that Echobelly described?
Also, isn't it true that it isn't so much that someone#s DH is "instantly judging any woman..." that does (or doesn't) wear x or y, but that much of the judgement comes from other women?

I should point out he wasn't saying he'd judge a woman's hell height he was trying to establish what he thought most people might see as 'neutral'.

He brought up the point of other women's judgement and I agreed it is that as well, of course.

It made me think of a judgement I'd made, funnily enough of very close to his neutral outfit, early in my career. I'd often see girls coming in for interviews for opening roles in a plain black Next skirt suit, white shirt, black shoes, that often didn't fit very well and they weren't very comfortable in, and think they looked very anonymous and lacking confidence in such an outfit. Which was kind of unfair as they were only just starting out!

NB, I'm in publishing, so it's not a very suity atmosphere.

interesting thought there about the girls coming in for entry level roles and their choices Echobelly. I remember being similarly somewhat conservative at the first few interviews I went too when I was younger too. I would still be formal and fairly conservative now.

Sorry I didn't mean to imply that your DH was "judgy", to use that horrible phrase.

Are "interview clothes" different from normal work clothes?
Is it the same for men?
In my experience men may wear a tie and jacket to an interview, but depending on the workplace, wear just a shirt after that.
Unless the office enforces jackets and ties, some do.
Perhaps women wear more sober or conservative clothes for interview, but then wear pretty much what they like after that.

People really can moan about anything.

You have point. And depending on your figure, even a bog standard suit can look quite different of different women. It may unintentionaly enhance curves and sexual attributes on one woman or sit like a sack on another. Either which way will be noticed.

Ifailed

Is it just confined to the workplace, or are women more likely to be judged by their clothes than men wherever they are?

Wherever.

In the outside world - apart from workman's overalls - mens clothes have two categories:

• Smart
• Not bothered

Neither are judged higher status than the other.

(but it depends on context of course - I'm talking about when someone sees you in the street or on the tube)

To me it looks like the women are having a mufti day while the men are all in uniform. They really need to break out of it.

I think its harder to "get it right" for women.

eg, in my workplace the dress code was the smart end of smart casual. Everyone knew that for men (of all shapes and sizes) this meant smart trousers, smart shirt and non-trainer shoes, but no tie. If there was a meeting with clients, ties would be pulled out of drawers and put on to transform the outfit into "smart". Clothes were considered smart if they vaguely fitted the wearer, but it of course normal for shirts etc to sit more loosely on male torsoes, which gives them a larger tolerance.
No-one noticed if they wore the same/identical pair of trousers every day.

For women, the ambiguousness required a lot more thought. Even an outfit that would look smart on one woman might not look smart on another (eg a colleague often wore fitted shirts and smart trousers similar to the male uniform, but she was slender and tall. The same would look frumpy on me as I am lumpier and it wouldn't fit right). Loosely fitting (not baggy) clothes could be considered scruffy if not chosen carefully.

And it was harder to instantly "dress up" an outfit at short notice. I used to keep a couple of blazers and nice shoes at work, but still a lot more effort than stuffing a tie into desk drawer.

Generally, when unsure its better to err on the side of being too smart than not smart enough. But even this could get commented on...

What used to give me the rage is receiving/overhearing lighthearted comments along the lines of "you always wear that dress!" "Do you always wear black?"
....From men who wear the same bloody thing every day!

Also socks.

If I wore coloured socks (or even black socks with a coloured band at the top only noticeable when sitting down), this would be considered quite scruffy/weird I think.

But this is considered fine for men in all but the most corporate workplaces.

It was never a problem for me- I worked in operating theatres, and everyone, male and female, consultant to porter, wore the same tatty cotton scrubs!
My DD is office based and she found a website that does made to measure trouser suits for women (with proper pockets - often missing in female ready to wear!), for less money than most high street ready made ones. She detests heels, so wears Doc Martens to work!

Babdoc Do you have a link to that website?? {grin}

I think it is a very good point in that women have a wider variety of body shapes as well, and that makes there being a 'neutral' look much harder when one outfit can look very different on different shapes. eg, I have very small boobs, so I can wear something fairly low-cut at the neck and no one's really going to notice in a way they would if I had a 32Gs rather than 32As.

The article I originally read focused on women in the law profession, where they said dressing was a massive minefield.

Protective work uniforms have their own problems.
Take white lab coats as an example. Men's cut, straight up and down, is standard and readily available. I'm not much over five foot, and GG cup size. Standard lab coats don't fit me anywhere - shoulders, arm length, bust, waist, pockets, length. Safety shoes in size five can be hard to come by, or a scaled down version of men's which are altogether the wrong shape for me.
Cleaner's uniforms, which are the same thing but in coloured cotton, come in women's fit as standard. So if I choose to wear the protective clothing which fits my body, my colleagues get all sorts of messages about my being lower status from it. It is already difficult for me to be taken seriously as a petite woman, I don't need an additional visual barrier.

Men are judged less than women of course, but I can think of many examples where men who step outside the box are judged.
A man I worked with, a professor, wore shorts all the time. It seemed incongruous to his professional status and he was ridiculed (behind his back, because he was y'know, the prof).
A man I worked with liked to think he was a bit of a bodybuilder. He wore ridiculously tight formal shirts that strained the buttons. He was ridiculed behind his back too.

Safety shoes: there are far fewer styles for women, they harder to get hold of (some catalogues don't have them at all) and they have pink on.

High-vis vests/jackets and H cup boobs don't mix well either.

Oh, and those trousers with the built-in pouch for kneepads? In my whole life, I have had one style that fits properly. Most cut in the crotch, are too tight on the thigh, and too loose on the waist.

I too would like this website for the magic suits please.

And yes OP you’re right!

Shorts with bare feet, by any chance, deydododatdodontdeydo?

Or are there two of them?

+1 for the website please!!