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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Oh FFS! Pronouns at work. Need to rant!

80 replies

PedantWithAnAxeToGrind · 28/08/2018 18:14

Namechanged on the grounds that I at least hope this may still be vaguely identifiable due to its rarity.

I realise this doesn't hurt me personally in the grand scheme of things, but I do work in a sector that makes it twice as hard for women, still. And yet:

Apparently, we now all get to set our pronouns in our work IT systems. We are kindly given the choice between he/she/they/define your own via text input. Yes, really. We get to use our own made up ones if we please.

They also helpfully educate us that pronouns apparently 'refer to our gender identities or expressions'. No, they really fucking don't! Pronouns are 'pro nomina', i.e. words used in the place of names. Nothing more or less. No metaphysical BS required.

WIBU I to set mine to 'fuckoff/fuckoffs (or fucksoff?)/fuckoffself'?

Sorry, dear firm, I normally like working for you. You pay me very decently and pronote me on a regular basis. But when my ex-boss stated in the middle of a team meeting that he'd like to spill something other than coffee on me, he got a slap on the wrist and a promotion the year after. When I sit in management level meetings, everyone else in there except myself has had the privilege of not being brought up to be pleasing and conciliatory and developed a thundering baritone some time during puberty to boot. That would be because - in my division at least - we literally have but a handful of woman managers. So much so that I'm trotted out like a fucking show pony at every occasion to serve as the showcase diversity hire success story. You once kindly offered me a fucking makeup course among my suggested trainings. I've had to fight twice as hard and to be three times as good as my male peers to get where I am. I've had to escalate up to C-level for you to allow me to make the best woman on my team the team manager, because she'd been on mat leave before and was still in the age range where another might be expected, so you thought the idiot man might be the safer bet.

... and then you come and try to explain to me that 'gender' is what I identify as or express? And you're making me declare that and write it into your database? As in, the crap I take every day because I happened to choose a male dominated career despite my X-chromosome is somehow my own fault because I identify into it or something?

Sorry, dear firm (not actually sorry)! The shit I take in this job is down to the fact that I have a double X chromosome and happen to look the part. 'Gender' is what makes arsehole men assume that I'll put up with it. That I'm not up to the job if I don't look pretty enough while slaying at it. That means I never get to tell arsehole men that they're arsehole men because, if I did, you'd think I was being 'emotional' rather than 'assertive' and you'd question my ability to cope.

Gender is not something I fucking identify with. I fight it to the best of my abilities on your premises every day when I turn up to work. It's limiting and oppressive and I don't want to celebrate it by putting my fucking pronouns on my personnel file. I don't identify as a woman. I am a woman on the grounds that the sperm that fertilised the egg contained an X chromosome. And 'gender' has been making this kind of a shit experience at times.

I'm not even technically a RadFem. I'm all for people being able to express themselves whichever way they bloody want to. Have penis, wear a skirt? More power to you! I realise that you'll probably take crap for that. And I'll honestly try my best to speak up when you do. But it doesn't make you a fucking woman and you don't know what it means to be one on the grounds that you have some feeling or other. Come and talk to me again when YOUR un-bepenised peers get paid more than you for less, poorer quality work at a lower level of seniority.

So, rant over!

Any actually constructive ideas about how to challenge this crap without losing my job welcome.

Yes, I'm seething. Less so about the stupid pronouns setting (though that's insulting) and more so about the friendly lecture in the mass email about what pronouns and gender are all about.

Fuck off, male HR dude ...

OP posts:
AsAProfessionalFekko · 28/08/2018 19:28

Oh just make something up. Squarf springs to mind. If enough people make up their own term there wine be enough space for the drop down menus.

Has HR got nothing better to do?

TheMostBeautifulDogInTheWorld · 28/08/2018 19:29

Is the "define your own" text field if enough for the whole OP??

TheMostBeautifulDogInTheWorld · 28/08/2018 19:30

Bum. Lancelottie got there first!

HollowTalk · 28/08/2018 19:31

This stuff is doing my fucking head in. I think alongside a lot of women I have been through gaslighting in a relationship and this feels exactly the same, except that we're not allowed to even say that.

And why is all of this happening now? I don't understand it at all.

ErrolTheDragon · 28/08/2018 19:32

I suppose a folk festival might be the one occasion when referring to everyone as 'folk' might work.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 28/08/2018 19:34

Fabulous rant

I agree with every word

Well almost..im confused by this I'm not even technically a RadFem. I'm all for people being able to express themselves whichever way they bloody want to. Have penis, wear a skirt? More power to you

I did an online thingy that said i was more rad fem than intersectional or bib (just) so if I believe the above do i need to hand in my rad fem badge...which i am assured is in the post, still

MsBeaujangles · 28/08/2018 19:35

Are you Jeremy Paxman OP 😀

www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-45329067

PedantWithAnAxeToGrind · 28/08/2018 19:39

Thanks, everyone!

I feel marginally better after typing all of this out and a lot of cussing. And I'm happy I seem to have entertained some of you at least. Smile

Are pronouns truly necessary or is it collecting unnecessary personal information?

I actually think this one may have some sarcasm-free, real-life potential. Given that they're putting this on the internal directory pages, I wonder if I could actually challenge this silly policy arguing that publishing it for everyone within the firm and any contractors to see would put us at risk of discrimination on the basis of protected characteristics of sex, gender reassignment or beliefs (in the case of people refusing to put theirs down due to disagreements with the notion of gender). I could also argue that it's not necessary to collect this information in order for us to be fulfilling our contractual duties and that, therefore, it's a GDPR violation.

This actually sounds like a reasonable argument that I could make in my capacity as (side job and not what I mainly do) divisional data protection officer.

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PedantWithAnAxeToGrind · 28/08/2018 19:42

@Rufustheyawningreindeer, my mother was a bona fide RadFem. I don't think and wouldn't dare for a moment to assume this designation. My sorry attempts at being gender critical are a faint shadow of who she was and what she believed and said and did.

Then again, self-ID is the thing of the day. I'm a RadFem, then, because I say so! Grin

OP posts:
IAmLurkacus · 28/08/2018 19:47

Nothing constructive to say but Star for your rant

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 28/08/2018 19:48

Im a rad fem cos some online thingy told me so Grin

To be fair I usually only claim the title of feminist, but its amazing how many people on mumsnet like to tell you what you are Grin

DartmoorDoughnut · 28/08/2018 19:59

OP that was an awesome rant

Iused2BanOptimist · 28/08/2018 19:59

I think I'm a bit thick about the pronouns thing. I mean, when are you meant to use them? What's wrong with names? I tried to read something yesterday that used they/their and the use of the plural made it unreadable, it was so confusing.
I would go for a return to formality, not least because it is bound to annoy. Ms, Miss or Mrs. Though I would rather identify as French and go with Mme. Although ideally I would be Lord Justice (Butler Sloss).

redshoeblueshoe · 28/08/2018 20:02

Actually if I was in your shoes I would have been sacked already.
If someone suggested sending me on a makeup course they may have received a knee in the nuts

PedantWithAnAxeToGrind · 28/08/2018 20:12

I think I'm a bit thick about the pronouns thing. I mean, when are you meant to use them?

Luckily for you, my employer's HR department is happy to help: you're meant to use them when speaking about people in the 3rd person. Because, apparently, 'you/yours/yourself' is still the done thing when addressing people directly.

So, basically, I leave a voicemail for my employee and will say hello, X, this is Pedant calling from work. I've noticed you've been absent without notice [...]

But I'd then email HR stating Hi, snowflakey uber-PoMo HR guy, I'm hereby giving formal notification that X has been absent for four days without communication. I'm worried that totallywokepronoun may not have familiarised totallywokepronounself with the absenteeism policy [...]

So, in a nutshell, it's actually a way of controlling not so the terms in which people speak to you but how they speak about you - even in your absence.

Which really only serves to make it all the more controlling.

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ShowOfHands · 28/08/2018 21:32

I'm intrigued re the makeup course. I had to attend obligatory training at work on how not to flirt with male colleagues. Apparently, I shouldn't giggle or touch my hair. Presumably, if I wore makeup, I'd be accused of sexually enticing Toby from accounts.

TigerDrankAllTheWaterInTheTap · 28/08/2018 21:56

Shock Did the male employees also have to attend the course on how not to flirt? What about any colleagues you had who are gay or lesbian?

As for offering make-up training ... speechless.

Quality rant, OP!

R0wantrees · 28/08/2018 22:13

recent relevent thread discussing pronouns:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3334275-Misgendering

ShowOfHands · 28/08/2018 22:18

There were no male employees at the time and after my vociferous complaining, they scrapped the training.

Iused2BanOptimist · 28/08/2018 22:19

Thank you for the explanation Pedant
I think should I come up against this I will continue to be thick, as a pp has suggested. And meanwhile refuse to use any pronouns at all and stick with name. It'll get a bit annoying after a while. Jane did x then Jane said and I replied and so Jane said then Jane went off and did and I said to Jane.
And I think Ms surname in preference to Christian name should be even more annoying but can't be criticised. So not allowing that control.

ReluctantCamper · 28/08/2018 22:42

great rant in the face of supreme provocation

and yes, pointless information to collect and display, potentially leaving employees open to discrimination in all kinds of ways.

yetanotherusernameAgain · 28/08/2018 22:46

I would be tempted to say nothing, put he/him/his, and then see if anyone notices and starts using them. If someone questions you about it, just look slightly puzzled as to why they've mentioned it (after all no one should be asked to justify their choice of pronouns, it should be accepted unquestioningly). If you make a big deal of it they'll think you're a silly woman Making A Feminist Point.

RaininSummer · 28/08/2018 22:49

Brilliant rant. Being sent on a make up course seems an irritating mix of sexism and general insult.

Like the idea that we could all act 'thick' and say we dont know what a pronoun is.

Tanith · 28/08/2018 22:49

How about XX and you can have fun as they try to pronounce it?

PedantWithAnAxeToGrind · 28/08/2018 22:59

Nothing particularly intriguing about the makeup training: a few years back, they realised that our workforce consisted of

OP posts: