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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Breastfeeding, women's bodies and feminism

117 replies

Polynerd · 25/08/2018 00:47

A male friend just posted a link on FB about breastfeeding reducing a woman's risk of stroke. I was surprised to see that he got a furious response from his (largely middle-class, middle-aged) female friends. We're fed up of being told what we should do with our bodies.
I fed all of my children and frankly I wish I had gone with the bottle. How are we supposed to get to a position where men and women have equal responsibility for children if women are harangued into being the sole provider during a child's early life?
If as much scientific effort was put into reproductive health research as is put into designing cars and phones, we would have better milks and measures to offset any risks to women's health arising from not feeding.

OP posts:
reddressblueshoes · 25/08/2018 11:18

This is interesting to read as I'm expecting my first imminently and planning to breastfeed, though not expecting to feel immense guilt if it doesn't work out.

I'm fully prepared to change my view once I experience the reality but based on the experience of those around me I have to say I disagree with the idea that pumping/switching to formula is likely to have a huge difference in equal parenting.

I've been reading a lot on the fourth trimester, the need for women's bodies to recover after childbirth, etc. My feeling is for the first six months after birth, it's not just about caring for a child, but supporting women to recover from pregnancy and childbirth. Men can't breastfeed, but they're also not physically recovering from a huge event. When women are on maternity leave, it makes sense to a certain degree they find themselves as primary carer with their partners supporting them. But this is why I feel shared parental leave is so important- to correct whatever imbalance may occur as a result of biology.

A lot of friends who've availed of it have said that despite best intentions, they had slipped into the woman being the 'boss' in terms of baby care- the one who knew what baby liked, could settle faster, etc. After a few months shared parental leave, they felt much more like equal parents, which then continued on.

There are obviously huge economic issues around that- not many people can afford to take it, but many people also argue it's impossible as the man is the higher earner. I am lucky enough to have a number of very good examples of equal parenting in my friendship group: in the majority of cases, both parents were at an equal stage in their career beforehand and went back to work full time after a year. They were also all mid-thirties when they had their first and had been used to sharing household chores etc equally. This shouldn't be the only way - and I'm sure there are many SAHMs who feel they have equal parenting arrangements- but my feeling is the socio-economic side of things has much more of an effect longterm than breastfeeding.

So it comes down to culture, and respect for roles, and the different ways women can be supported and valued. I'm the only one who can carry our child, or breastfeed our child. But we already have areas of responsibility in our relationship, so why not in parenting once they're not picked based on some sexist stereotype? I handle our money and bills, my husband does most of the cooking, I do most of the laundry, we ultimately share chores equally. If he feeds me while I feed the baby, is that so different once there are other ways he binds with her and takes responsibility and it doesn't carry on into areas outside of breastfeeding?

Nutkins24 · 25/08/2018 11:20

Also agree with paintedwingsandgiantrings.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 25/08/2018 11:32

I'm typing this while feeding a squirmy 1 yr old.

Recommend everyone to watch this. There are anti-cancer components of human milk. It's incredible human-milk.com/index.html

The big scandal I think is that the formula companies have so successfully brainwashed us all into this whole breastmilk vs formula false dichotomy. It should be human milk from mum vs free, screened donated human milk from a bottle. We have a succesful blood donation service, why not breastmilk? It would save the nhs money in the long term. It would be cheaper for all families. Here's a great charity that's just launched that is working towards this (think their focus first is for poorly babies to have access to human milk). humanmilkfoundation.org

There is so little support for milk donation. I would happily have donated milk but there was no support for me to do so. I would happily have donated milk to any woman who didn't want to feed herself for whatever reason, because I want to support other women. There are facebook communities of women who donate milk to mums and babies in need, all without any nhs input, often travelling miles and putting in hours of volunteer work, they're amazing. It is a total scandal no one ever questions the status quo.

For me, I recently realised why I'm so keen to continue bf past a year..it's time I get to read fwr and do stuff just for me. There is basically no other time in the day this is true....Grin

GoldenWonderwall · 25/08/2018 11:36

I mix fed so hopefully it balances out as neutral - who knows? Certainly not some bloke sharing a meme on fb and then getting all sadface when women don’t bow down in the wake of his facts about something he will never have to do or not do.

I have to say that none of the advice regarding feeding dc has ever felt like it’s coming from a positive place. It’s all dire warnings and how you’re fucking up your perfect child with your selfish choices. And then they turn 2 and you realise they subsist on chocolate buttons and floor food so it matters less.

Batteriesallgone · 25/08/2018 11:38

Even the dialogue around settling babies is so negative, mums who ‘slip into’ being the boss of baby care, rather than the unique bond between mother and baby being celebrated. A baby knows it’s Mum. Of course it does, it’s survival instinct.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 25/08/2018 11:45

Also agree with what painted said.

LisaSimpsonsbff · 25/08/2018 11:47

reddress I really hope it is true that shared parental leave will 'reset' the balance a bit for us in a few months' time. I don't think it's going to be the absolute win-win I thought it would be when I was pregnant, both because of the feeding issue (I'm finding it increasingly hard to see how I'm going to manage both full-time work and exclusive breastfeeding, though I know other women do) and because I'm going to find it so much harder to leave DS than I thought I would.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 25/08/2018 11:48

Also, if human milk was readily available for free then there would be one less way to set women against each other, I guess that's why it hasn't happened. Gotra keep us feeling guilty and in our place.....

Cachailleacha · 25/08/2018 11:50

I agree with paintedwingsandgiantrings

MIdgebabe · 25/08/2018 11:51

I wish I had some support to bf. she didn't latch properly. the midwife made no suggestion or investigation, she was just was astounded that i didn't have a bottle and supply of formula. Thats in the uk.

Looking after babies does need more support. I had only one. I took less than a year out of career that is likely to be over 50 years. 2% time. 20% salary hit.

Painted has preensted it very well.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 25/08/2018 11:51

Even the dialogue around settling babies is so negative, mums who ‘slip into’ being the boss of baby care, rather than the unique bond between mother and baby being celebrated oh yes, 100% agree.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 25/08/2018 11:59

"Donor Milk
In the UK, milk banks used to exist in every hospital that delivered babies. After the 1980s, a combination of funding constraints and the discovery of HIV meant that only six milk banks that had equipment to heat-treat the milk remained. Even now, only a handful of NHS milk banks exist in England and Wales, meaning donor milk has been a precious resource rationed to the most sick, premature babies." From humanmilkfoundation.org/donating/

Interesting, rather than investing in more heat treatment equipment, they scrapped the milk banks and started paying for formula. Almost as if massive corporate interests who stood to profit massively were involved in that decision.......

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 25/08/2018 12:00

Or, indeed, screening donors for HIV....

LisaSimpsonsbff · 25/08/2018 12:00

ineed for donated breast milk to be the standard alternative you'd need breastfeeding rates to absolutely soar - given how low they are currently there would be nothing like the supply. Plus while there are women willing to donate to what they perceive as babies in need, e.g premature babies in NICU, I don't think you'd get many women who would donate their own milk for use by women who didn't want to breastfeed for personal or social reasons.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 25/08/2018 12:05

I don't think you'd get many women who would donate their own milk for use by women who didn't want to breastfeed for personal or social reasons

Well, why don't we try? I believe there are far more women out there supportive of other women and who would happily donate. That's been my experience. Maybe I'm just high on oxytocin and the fabulous women of FWR but if we don't even imagine a future that is better for women (and children) we definitely won't get there.

I suspect most donation schemes wouldn't allow you to specify anyway just like you can't specify that your donated blood isn't used to help a sex attacker knifed by their victim.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 25/08/2018 12:11

And as the human milk foundation say, it's going to be gradual, but if one more woman with breast cancer gets to use human milk, or one woman who wanted to feed but has a phobia of breasfeeding and is helped to stop and feel less guilty, or if one more poorly baby is helped, then surely it's worth trying.

FanWithoutAGuard · 25/08/2018 12:17

I hated pumping - it just seemed such a waste of time when I could deliver it straight into the baby much more quickly and easily (well, not for DS1 - he took a couple of months to figure it all out). Neither of mine were interested in bottles - DS1 particularly (we had to wean him onto fruit juice to persuade him to even try a cup - but weirdly now at 8 he only drinks milk or water)

DP bathed him, we took turns changing, and walking from room to room for him to look out the windows when he was inconsolable, making dinners. having showers etc.

Feeding was a relatively small part of looking after the kids once they were past a couple of months, which is why the idea that bottle feeding so that others can help actually feels more like an excuse for other people to 'have a go' with the baby than something to really take the heat off the mother - in fact, when I read stuff on MN, it's frequently used as another stick to beat women - if she'd give the baby a bottle, then the father/grandparents/siblings could bond with the baby.

I don't intend to have another kid, but I'd BF again, and not even try expressing, it just didn't bring enough benefit for the effort the other times - nothing to wash up, I just sit there feed and read/watch TV during the feeds, the first 6 months fly by, and then you can be down to pretty much just morning/eventing/night time feeds anyway, and the boobs have calmed down and don't mind a bit of a feed gap.

I do agree though - knowledge and information is what's missing here - balanced pros and cons of both, so women can make a real evaluation of their options.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 25/08/2018 12:34

A testimonial from the webpage humanmilkfoundation.org/donating/ - amazing stuff

One of the hardest things about my diagnosis of breast cancer while I was pregnant was being told that I wouldn't be able to breastfeed my son due to needing to continue with chemotherapy after the birth. I enjoyed breastfeeding my daughter for 18 months and had to stop feeding her to be able start chemotherapy. It was very upsetting that I wouldn't get to have that same breastfeeding relationship with my son. Part of me felt guilty that I wasn't able to give him my breast milk to provide the best start for him, especially after having undergone chemotherapy whilst pregnant with him. The donor milk I received help take that guilt away and was a blessing that has made my cancer diagnosis that much easier to cope with. He was able to obtain many of the important benefits of breast milk and I was able to feel like I was doing all I could to ensure he has had the best start in life. He has been jumping up the percentiles in his weight through being fed exclusively donor milk and is clearly thriving. The donor milk has not only helped my baby but also helped me emotionally deal with the circumstances. I can't thank all those lovely women out there enough for donating milk to the milk bank and am so grateful to them and all the team that work to ensure the milk is processed safely and delivered for my baby. It has been an absolute blessing at a very stressful time. We hope that following my recovery that we can fundraise for the Human Milk Foundation to raise awareness for this fantastic charity that has helped us so much as such a difficult time.

paintedwingsandgiantrings · 25/08/2018 12:34

I hated breastfeeding- I hated it from day one. I think I struggled for about 3 months. It never got any better, hurt and made me feel physically sick.

I could not care less whether women like painting disapproves of my unfeminist choice to stop. My own mental and phyisical health was more important. Given my son is 28 and the last time he had to see any medical professional for anything was to get his MMR I am unconvinced I failed him by giving up.

I don't disapprove of your decision, nor do I think it was unfeminist or that you failed your child. Me disapproving of you FF would be as ridiculous as you telling me I'd failed my children by bringing them up in a city, where pollution is a risk to their health. We make choices about our parenting for a multitude of reasons, and taking the route of optimum health isn't always achievable - or even desirable - give the factors we're dealing with in our own lives.

I am sorry to hear you had such a shit time BFing though. As you started it, and put up with it being so bad for 3 months, imagine you wanted BF? I'm sorry it wasn't easier for you, it sounds like a horrendous experience and I don't blame you one bit!

But, I can't help wondering if you might have had a different experience given better support. (e.g. perhaps your baby had undiagnosed tongue tie - it shouldn't hurt for 3 months - or perhaps there was some other reason). There's pretty good evidence to show that what stops women BFing is lack of decent support, not lack of the intention to.

It's why the "breast is best " message is a crude tool, and one which people are now starting to move away from, thankfully. Repeatedly bashing mothers over the head with a message that says, basically "breast is best, do this for your child - else you're failing them!!" isn't that effective. It's aimed at getting mothers BFing at the start - but without putting in the necessary resources to support BFing longer term. It isn't a great recipe for success IMO and it's not surprising it makes mothers feel resentful. There's only so many times a campaign can tell us that something is good for our child - if circumstances mean we're unable to do it, or it's difficult to, telling us again and again what we already know, isn't actually very helpful and possibly even counter productive.

LisaSimpsonsbff · 25/08/2018 13:04

I might be a uniquely shit/selfish person, but while I'd donate milk (if I could figure out the logistics) to an ill baby or a woman physically incapable of feeding I wouldn't donate if the vast majority of the milk went to babies whose mothers find it inconvenient and difficult (ie the vast majority of women who currently don't breastfeed) - I find it inconvenient and difficult, and donating would be even more so! I just think donation is only ever going to be viable if we increase breastfeeding rates to the point that all women who can do - and I think that would be very difficult, and I don't even know whether it's desirable.

Batteriesallgone · 25/08/2018 15:09

Quite a lot of women don’t find it inconvenient or difficult though.

I hate pumping but am always surprised how many people build up a ‘stash’ of frozen milk ‘just in case’ - it must be easy for them, and should be easy to donate as well.

SnuggyBuggy · 25/08/2018 15:24

I think some people produce way more by pumping than others to be fair. I can do enough for the odd bottle but would struggle to keep DD on breastmilk if I went back to work.

ListsWonderfulLists · 25/08/2018 15:39

I bf both my children until they were two and I didn't find it made the share of work unequal at all. My husband did virtually everything else, especially in the early stages, and even though I had non-sleeping babies he would take them from me every evening until about midnight so I could get a couple of hours solid sleep, then I'd pass them back to him about 5am every morning so I could catch up then as well. We truly did it 50/50 and I wouldn't have stood for anything less. Also, I didn't find it affected going back to work. I went back at 6 months and 5 months respectively and DC1 wouldn't take a bottle. However, we did manage to get him to take a little expressed milk out of a sippy cup so that was fine (and he just made up for it at night!) I have plenty of friends who ff but their husbands did bugger all so I think it's nothing to do with feeding method but a lot more to do with how much support you have, both from health professionals and partners. Anyone telling women what to do with their own bodies can fuck right off but I don't believe bf is anti-feminist at all. Better support for women's health generally would be beneficial, no matter how they feed, how they give birth etc.

OlennasWimple · 25/08/2018 16:03

but we are now able to transcend biology using science

No. No we are not

OlennasWimple · 25/08/2018 16:05

I think in a previous life I must have been a wet nurse - after a few weeks struggling to crack BF (prem baby, tiny mouth, fair skin), my supply kicked in properly and I could produce plenty more than was needed. I'd have happily donated it for longer (I donated some to the prem baby unit). I pumped almost from the start, because DC was prem and partially tube fed, so perhaps that helped