Gender Critical views gaining traction

[AusDad]

Hi MN! Gender-critical bi man here, first-time poster, long-time lurker and lover of this community, fully acknowledging I'm here in what is predominantly a women's space on MN, so feel free to ignore my views if that's how you feel :) I know many of you are sick of hearing a man's perspective, and understandably so, but I wanted to offer my support and thoughts to those in this community.

Over the past 12-24 months I have seen more and more women coming out against radical transgender ideology. This has been natural a reaction to the growing trans activism madness which has been creeping in the last 5-10 years.

I see women angry and hurt and upset that their words and identity are being taken from them without consultation. They don't feel safe in their spaces. Their sporting achievements and opportunities are being taken away. They see the definition of what it means to be a woman not just blurred, but completely made a joke of.

I see trans people and their allies threatening women both online and in real life. Threats of violence (and actual violence sometimes). Threats of death. Use of the term TERF to silence women who disagree with their words and identities being redefined.

I see the push by many in the gender critical community to get the term TERF considered a slur, and I think this is working. The moment the word TERF is used, all debate is shut down. Women no-platformed and silenced. They use the word TERF as a convenient catch-all for what they really mean, which is "women who disagree with us about what it means to be a woman".

Take any of the hateful tweets or comments about TERFs and substitute the word TERF for those words (women who disagree with us) and the results are scary. These comments and threats are tolerated in society and online because they use that label - TERF. I see some women and radfems owning the term and staunchly declaring themselves TERFs. Some wear it as a badge of honour. That's fine! I the term has been poisoned though. I don't think it's possible to now have it used as a positive label. I think the push to declare it a slur is the right move.

When you dehumanise someone by giving them a label and declaring them hateful and pariahs, it makes hateful rhetoric towards them "acceptable".

I think if we want to fight back against this madness, the term "Gender critical" needs to be pushed more, and stand up against the use of the term TERF. It's an excellent term. We SHOULD be critical of gender. Gender stereotypes and roles should be fought against, not reinforced.

One benefit of uniting under such a term is that many people who do not consider themselves "trans-exclusionary" or "radical feminists" can get behind the term. This includes men. This includes women who don't consider themselves feminists.

I grew up in a household full of women. I've always been a more effeminate man. I'm thankful for the influence of all the wonderful women in my life and I have nothing but respect for them. I see the damage that gender stereotypes do to girls, boys, women, and men. These stereotypes are what we need to change, not our words and our bodies.

There's nothing wrong with being a feminine man. This does not make you a woman though.

There's nothing wrong with being a masculine woman. This does not make you a man though.

There's nothing wrong with not fitting into gender stereotypes. There's nothing wrong with you. Society is the problem. Gender is the problem. It feels like we're doing the exact OPPOSITE of what we should be doing with respect to gender.

It's infuriating to me as a man to see your words redefined, spaces invaded, voices shouted down, and told they can't celebrate their female bodies because it's offensive to others. Women threatened and made to feel bad for their deeply held (and correct) views about what a woman is. I can't even imagine how it must feel for women. One of my male privileges is that I don't get called a TERF for my views, or told to "die in a fire" or "choke on my ladydick". I'm simply called a transphobe, but at least being called a transphobe leaves room for debate. It's still a silencing technique, but not as effective as the term TERF.

We need to be louder and angrier about the silencing techniques being used and the violent language towards women. When they say TERF, we need to reject the term and make them say what they really mean; "Women who disagree with us". Object to the use of the term TERF. Ask them to not call you a TERF and say it is offensive and you do not identify as one.

Communities like this and reddit.com/r/gendercritical are growing stronger every day. Strong, brave women who are sick of being cast aside and having the rights and protections they've fought for taken away. Sick of being forced to say and accept things they don't and will not believe, because they find them fundamentally false and offensive.

I'd wager that the majority of people in western society do not truly believe the statement "Trans women are women". When you add in non-western society (the other 80% of the world population), I'm almost certain even fewer people would agree with it.

I can't speak on behalf of women, nor do I want to. I can only speak on my own behalf based on what I've seen. I can and do however want to do everything possible to support and encourage women to speak out. I'm actively encouraging gender-critical views amongst my friends and family. Advice on how I can continue to support women and promote gender criticism (criticalness?) is always appreciated.

Don't give in to their silencing. Don't let them shame or guilt you with phrases like "your transphobia is literally killing us". We all know it's not gender-critical women killing them; it's violent men. Don't foster their delusions. Don't let them control your language. If you feel uncomfortable or unsafe, say so. Their right to feel safe and comfortable does not trump yours. Reject their dismissal of you as a TERF; make them say what they really mean - A woman with her own thoughts who disagrees. Don't allow their threats of violence and death. Report their hate speech against women. Demand the right to be heard. You deserve a voice and a platform. You are entitled to your beliefs.

I would also recommend letting the men if your life know (if you have any; I know many women choose not to for obvious reasons) that you don't feel comfortable with the word woman being redefined and your spaces, protections, and opportunities taken from you. Talk to men about your gender critical views. Being gender critical is common sense. Men will by and large support you; as men are also sick of this trans insanity. We are just not being pushed out of our spaces like you are. If we were, we'd be up in arms. The attached image (borrowed from the sidebar of r/gendercritical) is a graphic explaining gender critical views and I've found through sharing that it is simple enough for even us men to understand :) Let men know what we can do to help. Tell us how you feel.

Don't give up what you've fought so hard for to those who insist that being a woman is a feeling. We all know it's not. We all know what a woman is. We all grew inside of one.

Sorry for the essay. Thanks if you took the time to read! And thanks to MN for not caving into radical ideology and providing a safe place for women to discuss what it means to be a woman.

I apologise again if my post came across as mansplainy. It was not my intent. I know you are all far more aware than myself of the issues and arguments. I didn't come here announcing my manliness to give my manly opinion. I don't think manly is a word that has ever been used to describe me :) I am however a man and did announce it at the outset, so I can see how it would appear that way.

I came to give my support to the women of the community, and to offer an outside perspective on the attacks on women and the language used to do it. I'm just trying to get involved. I'll re-assess how I speak on the subject. Thanks again for the feedback.

He’s just showing us his support. He shouldn’t have to walk on eggshells to do so. Thanks OP.

To be fair, he did just come on a notoriously GC feminism board and write an essay on GC feminism - he should expect a little bit of light ribbing for it!

OP. Well done for coming round to the opinions we already have. Please do go forth and tell some people who don't already know it, and perhaps join some chats about the subject rather than holding forth at great length in your own thread for cookies.

One thing you can do OP is start an Aus thread so we can draw Australians in to talk about the shit going down here.

I came to give my support to the women of the community, and to offer an outside perspective on the attacks on women and the language used to do it. I'm just trying to get involved

What is interesting here OP is the difference between how you did it, and how other (female) posters have.

You came on to critique, to give your opinion, to lead - whereas women come on to ask questions and discuss, and occasionally thank.

I would have a ponder on that if I were you.

And the OP is right! GC views are gaining traction. Don't worry OP - I liked your post but you must remember that so many pop up on this board to educate us that most on here have limited tolerance.
Just be glad that nobody started discussing cakes or even weetabix. Then you really know that you're in trouble!

OP don’t worry. It’s great what you feel. You are right that men generally think it’s a pile of bollocks and are more “say it like it is”.

I think it’s because women are more aware of how they themselves have benefitted from the push for diversity and inclusion and so don’t want to deny those rights to others.

The difference is of course that trans ideology isn’t about asking us to be trans-inclusive, it’s asking us to completely change our definition of ourselves.

One of the problems with men’s reaction though is that whilst they may think it’s bollocks they don’t see it as a huge problem. This is because it won’t have much in the way of consequences for them.

There will be no transmen trampling over their sports and transmen, having been socialised / born as women do not pose a threat to their safety in the same way. A transmen would be far safer in a women’s jail than in a men’s.

So yes we need more men like yourself and James Kirkup to look beyond the language and see the ramifications it will have on hard-won women’s rights.

You came on to critique, to give your opinion, to lead - whereas women come on to ask questions and discuss, and occasionally thank.

Well that’s true. He was a tad bossy but he’s been socialised that way, to think that his opinions count. It’s not his fault and he’s been super nice to any criticism.

Thanks for posting, I'm very pleased by male allies joining the fray - you probably knew you'd get the 'man has entered the room'

Having rehearsed your arguments to us, I guess now you need to move on and try to talk effectively to men.
We need to be louder and angrier about the silencing techniques being used and the violent language towards women.

Women are generally not great at 'loud and angry' - if you think that's the way to engage with men you know, go to it!

Advice on how I can continue to support women and promote gender criticism (criticalness?) is always appreciated.

Any specifics you want help with?

What was it that made you hit peak trans?

Yes I'm really interested in this. Can you share OP?

AusDad good to hear you want to get involved.

What was it that made you hit peak trans?

Why do you think the message about what's going on isn't reaching more people?

Ereshkigal cross posts!

OP, thanks and welcome.

We do need more men - I'm not sure many are aware at all. It's usually when you point out that their 13 year daughter could have to share the showers at the swimming pool with a 40 year old bloke or a tent on a trip with a 15 year old lad!

And sadly, its also true that once on board they get far less abuse for having an opinion.

Thanks for the post.

Agree with all the others who have said that how you can help is by raising this with men, sharing your post elsewhere, talking to the men in your life, and if they are sympathetic asking them to do the same. And so on.

Society still listens to men more than women. The additional bonus is that you have far less skin in the game and so will not be seen as acting out of self interest.

Women who are GC are a disparate bunch - we are doing what we can and are aware of what you have put in your post. I think it's fine to reveal yourself as GC in here where you are going to get agreement. Hello and welcome. It would be great if you could take the next steps of starting to raise these views in spaces that may be less welcoming.

Once MEN start to say hold on this whole thing is based on faith rather than logic, is highly homophobic, regressive etc then we will really start to see the tide turn.

That's sad to have to say but it's the truth.

Thanks Fan. I will absolutely ponder on it. I still admittedly have a lot of un-learning to do. Growing up in a house full of women couldn't prevent all my male socialisation, unfortunately. I fully intend to participate, ask questions, discuss, thank, and most importantly, ask what I can do to help. Perhaps a wordy thread was not the best method to join the community. I've never participated in any feminist communities as I was always told it was not my place.

My only critique was on trying to reclaim the term TERF. I don't think it's inclusive enough to attract outside allies. It's been turned on GC people as a slur to silence. A simple google search of the term shows how far gone it is. I think gender critical is a wonderful term that everyone can get behind, and focuses on the cause of the issue (gender) rather than the result (trans). It also doesn't require that you call yourself a radical feminist. I don't know any man who would call himself a TERF, but other men I've spoken to are receptive to "Gender critical" as a term they could get behind.

But I totally understand some women will be "TERF 4 Life" and are proud. And that's totally cool.

I don't know that women on this forum refer to themselves as TERFS all that much?

I haven't seen it that much in my other online communities.

I think most see it for what it is - shorthand for "bitch" or "witch" (the threats to burn "TERFS" are hardly uncommon), and not "reclaimable" as it was never "ours" to start with.

I agree with you but I'm not sure it's as big an issue as you think in terms of messaging.

The reason people don't listen to us is because we have cunts and the people we are saying NO to have cocks. Simple as that.

As for my peak transing, I had the pleasure of getting to know a wonderful trans widow and hearing her story, and hearing firsthand her TIM ex and TIM coven (can I use that term? What's the collective noun for a group of TIMs?) sitting around talking about the horrible things they want to do to TERFs.

I saw trans ideology ruin a family and cause incredible distress to very confused daughter.

Can I suggest before you post any more you familiarise yourself with MN talk guidelines and specifically the extra ones relating to discussion of trans issues. Your last post uses an acronym which although accurate is disallowed, so it may be deleted if anyone reports it. Terms deemed derogatory by either side may be discussed but not applied to people - so, we can discuss TERF here but a post calling someone that may be deleted - same for TIM, I think.

General:
www.mumsnet.com/info/netiquette

Trans additional:

www.mumsnet.com/info/trans-rights-moderation-policy

I think some of the language in your previous post might mean that MN delete it.

There is a post at the top of FRW about moderation policy, it would be worth your while having a read if you are planning on posting more.

The post is interesting - it seems that many men (NAMALT) ONLY "get" "women's issues" when they affect them personally. The standard thing of famous men saying "Oh now I have a daughter suddenly I see that the treatment of women and girls needs addressing". Us TELLING everyone every 5 mins is not enough. Our word is not seen as evidence. It is seen as subjective, inaccurate, coloured by emotion. Men only listen when other men talk. And other men only get interested when they have personal experience.

It's all rubbish really which is why feminism has such a long way to go.

No idea what to do about 'TERF' but i have found myself thinking 'you're on the wrong side of biology' whenever a TA spouts the 'wrong side of history' line. Biology trumps history for me .

I've only seen GC women using the term TERF in reference to themselves in contexts like: 'if saying that women don't have penises makes me a TERF, then I'm a TERF.'

Of course, the transactivists now use the word to refer to all sorts of people, including those who aren't radical feminists, or any kind of feminist at all. Just disagreeing with them is enough.

Have you seen this? terfisaslur.com/

As someone new to all this I love your post so thank you for writing it. Sometimes I get a bit lost in all the terminology on here but your post was written in my kind of style.
I was called transphobic for the first time a few days ago for objecting to being called cis. It was women arguing against me and it really saddened me that so many women are against women.
I'd love for there to be a very public uprising of gender critical views being shared by both men and women.
Thanks again for your post.

So you became gender critical when you had personal experience.

This is why it is so important that men like you speak. Other men will listen.

The gay community (if you are in any forums etc) are natural allies around this - and I would recommend that you focus on

1. The clear homophobia of the rhetoric. The regressive nature of the ideas. The situation in Iran and religious USA families shows this - for many "changing gender" is more acceptable than being gay. (In Iran being gay gets you the death penalty, the state encourages transition, fully medical transition ie gay men have the choice of castration or death)
2. The danger to old school trans-sexuals, drag queens etc if society backlashes when weirdy perves start taking advantge of women's and girls facilities being effectively "open to all" + sports (which is quite obviously unfair) + prisons etc.The facilitation on perviness and worse due to this might well result in backlash against any gender nonconforming men and that would be awful

I think these 2 issues will chime most with gay men? For sure (and I hope you take this the right way), many gay men I know are not really that interested in women - obviously not sexually or for relationships which are the only reason many straight men tolerate us! And there is the general male "don't get it til it's personal" thing which again is less likely - no girlfriend, wife, less likely to have a daughter etc. I am not saying that gay men are all raging misognists obviously! But that from a messaging perspective focussing on things that will more more likely to affect them / their partners / their friends will carry more weight.

It frustrates me that men's violence (especially sexual violence) is seen as a "women's issue" - when it's a society issue and how are women to solve something that is done to them by someone else? And to children and men as well? That's another topic though

The fact that TERF always used to be teamed with SWERF says a lot as well.

ie we are horrible witchy prudes, who are hellbent on stopping men having their sexy funtimes

We def need more GC male voices. You do not get the death threats and hate the female voices do - the more this happens the clearer the underlying misogyny in trans activism becomes. Please get active on Twitter - add your voice to those of men like @johnnybest. The more men speak out the better.