Help me manage this incident at work

[doracarrington]

NC as possibly identifying.

Today, at work, in a small group conversation, a senior manager at work referred to a group of women (not specific women in the office, not that that matters) as 'sluts'.

I am also a senior manager, at the same grade. I'm very new to the organisation (which is small).

I was open-mouthed with horror, as while, like most people I've encountered almost-under-the-radar sexism at work, this is the first time in my (liberal charity sector) bubble I've heard actual talk. A younger male colleague did the 'that's not ok' bit, but no apology was forthcoming.

So, I figure I have two choices here:

1. Raise it directly with the CEO. She is a feminist and an ally, but has also worked with this person for a long time.
2. Raise it directly with him first, and fire a warning shot.

I have to work with this person a lot, and they have the potential to be a massive block to my team's work. Having said that, this being verbalised actually says a lot to me about the tone of certain interactions I've been on the end of and witnessed.

If an 'oh my god, I'm sorry, I don't know what came over me' had been forthcoming I might feel more generous.

Wise mumsnetters, what would you do? DH thinks I should refer directly upwards as is at least a verbal warning offence. We don't have HR; we're too small.

For all those questioning why she didn't speak up...

Women are socialised to keep quiet, and be compliant

When these things happen we are shocked and don't always know what to do immediately

Despite being in a more senior position, women can sometimes feel subordinate to men on a subconscious level and this affects how we deal with things

As with many shocking things that happen to us as women, it takes a while to sink in and to think about how best to deal with it.

It is possible to be good at your job and still suffer with a lack of confidence at times.

In other words why focus on the OPs lack of action. She shouldn't have to defend her actions - he was the one who called women sluts.

Excuses, excuses. She was given a cue by the junior colleague- she didn't have to make the call out.

She should have to defend her actions.

The expectation was not that she challenge her manager or someone more senior, the offender was a peer and having difficult conversations with a peer should be a normal part of any snr managers role.

If one of the senior managers or directors on my team came to me with this example I'd be both surprised and disappointed that they did not respond at the time.

In fact the Op was too busy being overcome by the equilibrium to support the junior staff

AND open mouthed with horror = has the OP never been in a city centre on a Saturday night ?

For all those questioning why she didn't speak up...

Women are socialised to keep quiet, and be compliant

When these things happen we are shocked and don't always know what to do immediately

Despite being in a more senior position, women can sometimes feel subordinate to men on a subconscious level and this affects how we deal with things

As with many shocking things that happen to us as women, it takes a while to sink in and to think about how best to deal with it.

It is possible to be good at your job and still suffer with a lack of confidence at times.

In other words why focus on the OPs lack of action. She shouldn't have to defend her actions - he was the one who called women sluts.

I thought I'd never see it....but this is the living breathing incarnation of womansplaining! 🤣

OP DrCorday's advice is very good. Contact the CEO by email (so you have a record) then email the misogynistic colleague, cooly, and calmly (so you have record).

Ignore the posters having a dig. Sometimes all of us, male or female, are so shocked at hearing or witnessing something like this that it takes a bit of time to process and respond. You are human, it's ok not to have responded immediately. If it happens again you'll be prepared and probably call it out immediately and effectively.

OP DrCorday's advice is very good. Contact the CEO by email (so you have a record) then email the misogynistic colleague, cooly, and calmly (so you have record).

I agree. Everyone I've ever spoken to in HR or management says to get any kind of dispute in writing. This man was completely inappropriate and unprofessional. I do hope he's not client-facing.

Sometimes all of us, male or female, are so shocked at hearing or witnessing something like this that it takes a bit of time to process and respond.

This. Someone once made a pun on rape at work and I froze completely. (I discussed the inappropriateness with him afterwards, but at the time my fight/flee/freeze overwhelmed me.) Work is a context in which you expect that certain topics will not be jested about and certain language will not be used, so you lower your guard because a) you think/feel you can and b) you work more effectively if you aren't on edge. So when someone does say or do something awful, it completely broadsides you.

Jeez stop picking on the OP. We can't all be perfect, ready with the right riposte. And we all have found ourselves so aghast at something that we don't quite know how to gather our thoughts into a coherent sentence.

She's asking for advice, not facing a bloody firing squad.

Thank you BD67th and Rita.The Op, dora, has had some unacceptable crap thrown at her. She came on here for advice and got nastiness from some folks.

Depressing thread. The OP didn't react immediately to something she wasn't expecting. It's not a hanging offence.

AND open mouthed with horror = has the OP never been in a city centre on a Saturday night ?

Perhaps the OP was taken aback because she wasn't expecting a senior manager in a charity to deploy the misogynistic language language of a bunch of pissed-up neanderthals? Though, having followed a number of stories over the last year or so involving male senior managers in the charity sector, I'm coming to the conclusion that these are some of the worst men out there.

OP DrCorday's advice is very good. Contact the CEO by email (so you have a record) then email the misogynistic colleague, cooly, and calmly (so you have record)

Thank you. My situation wasn’t the word “sluts” but it was a direct comment that couldn’t be misconstrued as a “joke”. I also froze and didn’t tackle it at the time which annoyed me even more as I felt I’d let the females down in my business (I’d been there less than 1 month). By going to the most senior person in the business you are laying down your expectations going forward of what is completely inappropriate. I was also very prepared to walk if the MD didn’t take it seriously. That’s how strongly I felt and he saw that little fire that burns in someone who means business!

I agree. Everyone I've ever spoken to in HR or management says to get any kind of dispute in writing. This man was completely inappropriate and unprofessional. I do hope he's not client-facing

100% accurate. I am actually in HR too, which was even more of a reason to tackle my scenario and not let it be brushed under the carpet in an “informal bollocking”. I wanted it on record that this is not right and the file note would be on his file forever and one hint of this type of behaviour, he’d be out of the door, no matter how important his job was.

The worst thing being in HR is when allegations are raised by people but there are no specifics, evidence (witnesses) or detail of examples to the allegations. I have dealt with cases where I’ve been unable to do anything (formally) because of this and so the correction of the I appropriate behaviour has been less formal because they don’t see it as a problem (“just a woman moaning again” type problem )

My advice to anyone who thinks they are suffering bullying, harassment or who see / hear anything misogynistic / homophobic / racist etc, is to document it. You will gain a sense of if the company will take it seriously or now, so you either collate the evidence and keep a diary of the detail until you have a good case to take to management or HR; or you raise it immediately with management.

To be honest, the type of behaviour the OP has experienced, and what I dealt with, isn’t actually that common in the workplace. Anecdotally, we hear more on MN on the employment help boards and on here, as it is a place to sound off for advice, but in reality, it isn’t a wide spread issue. People are more willing to speak up either at the time, or afterwards and I’ve seen an increase in examples from friends / family / connections, of other men calling out their own male peers for it (eg. a female employee got whistled at once for getting out of her car near where a number factory workers were, and the persons colleages / friends went mad at him and properly put him in his place; the female colleague came to see me to document the good response to it!)

Also, the engagement, culture and talent attraction is far more important to companies now so this type of thing just wouldn’t be accepted if it was wide spread, as people will leave and management would start to ask why. Normally it the shitty behaviours come down to individuals, not the Company, and it is down to every single employee to not condone the unacceptable behaviours of a few.

I really hope you get sorted OP. I will happily read your email if you wish. PM me.

I totally disagree that an email is appropriate. You need to TALK to him

and

I don't think an email is appropriate either. I think you should speak to him. Explain you agree with junior colleague that the language used is not acceptable

PowerPlayed and LassWiADelicateAir it will very much depend on a number of factors if talking will work with an individual like this, eg length of service, age, seniority, power (different to seniority). You can start with talking about it but documenting it needs to happen for the message not to be lost.

Another example I have is a Director telling me in an open plan office, in a joking way, “I can’t use the photocopier as I’m a man ain’t I” type way. My fight or fright mode was “fight” and my response, probably a little inappropriate in an open plan office, was “I’m sorry, I didn’t realise owning a penis mean you were unable to operate basic office equipment” 😳 it worked. The situation allowed me to do it but I also did email him after to a)document it, and b) remove the humour that I continued with my approach.

Am I the only one on here wondering whether all the people piling in on the OP are men gleefully enjoying their chance to woman-blame?

Agree absolutely about putting anything you have to say to him in writing so that you have evidence. I would never have a quiet word with a colleague without a witness present, particularly in a situation where I was new to an organisation and wasn't sure of the power politics or individuals concerned. In a face-to-face behind a closed door you have no proof of what was said or control over how the person to whom you've spoken represents what you've said.

Something along the lines of: 'I was so shocked to hear you use the word 'sluts' to describe women during our meeting on Monday that I felt unable to respond at the time and was glad when Dan challenged you on your language. Language like that has no place in this organisation... etc, etc.'

Only you, OP, know whether it's appropriate to send a copy to your manager. I've worked for managers who've just expected me to sort stuff out and not involve them. I've also worked for managers who've wanted to know everything that's going on.

I'd also let 'Dan' know that I appreciate what he said and that I should a similar situation arise in future I'd be challenging it.

Of course documenting is appropriate but sending an email without having a conversation is not.

As a manager you need to be able to engage with your peers over difficult matters. Calling a group of non work women "sluts" (and it absolutely is relevant whether he was referring to other women you work with or an unifentified external group - again the mind boggles!) is not in itself, bullying or harassment. Treating it as such shows both a lack of maturity and runs the risk of being professionally damaging.

The correct way to deal with it would be to take him aside and let him know you were shocked by what he said and such talk has no place in a working environment. His reaction will then tell you whether you need to document it more formally.

Going in like a bull in a china shop with an email (which everyone knows is written to create an audit trail) is unlikely to be good for your long term career opportunities.

Of course documenting is appropriate but sending an email without having a conversation is not

I agree with this and the rest of overplayed 's last post.

You've got some good advice here. I would also pull aside the junior member of staff that said something to tell them how much you respect what he did and that it is just the kind of professional behaviour you wish to encourage.

A little shocked at some of the hostile comments at the OP and her situation.

Agree with remember - it is not always easy to instantly respond to random misogyny, particularly in an environment where you expect it not to happen.

As for the follow through, I do not think the momentum was lost with the junior male who spoke up - just thank him later "thanks for calling that out, appreciated, I was taken by surprise at the time".

I would not bother talking to the offending male directly, just take it to your manager. And yes, documentation as DrCorday sounds like a good thing.

I agree that messages criticising the OP have been poor feminism. Even if someone doesn't do exactly the right thing at the right time, what they need is sympathy, not being made to feel worse. And perhaps it's a feminist issue that in this case, a man felt able to talk back to an offensive man, but a woman didn't.

As far as followup is concerned, I'm always wanting to suggest (if it's trouble with a colleague or a family member) keeping the peace rather than coming out fighting. If you have to work with someone, it's better to keep a good relationship if you can. So in this case, I'd talk to the man privately and say something like "That was a nasty word you used, and I'd appreciate it if I didn't hear it again. 'Dan' said something to you at the time, and I should have done the same, but I'm saying it now. If we're going to work together, you've got to be more careful."

I think the backlash is likely because we hear so much negativity about men on here and yet in this example it was a man who stood up whilst his senior feminist boss stood by (albeit maybe not intentionally).

The more cynical poster (not referencing myself here) might view it in a similar way to another thread a read a while back. In said thread, a poster was telling a somewhat improbable sounding story about how her evil boss "liked to boast at work about raping rent boys in Thailand". It totally backfired when a few posters commented "what, and you didn't report him? You just let him continue raping them?"

I'm a bit late to this, but just wanted to ask whether even if you don't have HR you have some written HR guidelines? Even a small charity should, otherwise it puts the charity in a legally vulnerable position generally. Not saying this is a task you personally should take on, but a friendly charity might let your charity copy/paste theirs. Secondly, it's hard to judge the atmosphere of the charity from the brief post, and whether it was one bad moment or indicative of a bigger cultural problem in the charity. In that latter situation, if you feel you want to dig in and change it, rather than find a new job, I would be inclined to affect a "concerned but critical friend" manner in a feedback to the CEO and say something like "I'm concerned that comments like that could affect our credibility with funders, who are jumpy about standards of behaviour in charities at the moment, as well as with our staff. Should we develop a code of conduct so all of us are clear on how we should express our values at work?" Don't beat yourself up about not having responded at the time, management and personal resilience are skills we have to learn along the way.

Drcorday will probably find that her career will go no further and will lose her job over the next few months.

Why is that @0124oconn ?

Do you want to expand on that prediction as I’m confused why you’d think that my career will go no further when you have no idea who I am or where I work.

So in this case, I'd talk to the man privately and say something like "That was a nasty word you used, and I'd appreciate it if I didn't hear it again. 'Dan' said something to you at the time, and I should have done the same, but I'm saying it now. If we're going to work together, you've got to be more careful."

Tei that all sounds like a reasonable approach, on the surface. But I know the type of dude that would say that in the first place - all that will be achieved is more covert misogyny, he still won't respect you/her. He isn't five years old after all, but a grown man. He already knows it is a "nasty word", which is why he used it in front of her, as a male dominance display. If anything, he will use more underhanded ways to undermine her. Nope, you take it straight up the food chain after the incident (it may not stop the later undermining). And later thank the dude who did stand up to him (which encourages him to do more of it).