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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women's rights Ireland

23 replies

Workwoes30 · 17/08/2018 20:42

Have been following the debates here and on Twitter. Anyone know what's happening in Ireland. Just had a super quick Google and saw nothing relevant.

Should we be starting a campaigning now?

OP posts:
theOtherPamAyres · 17/08/2018 21:05

Hi

I have the impression that Ireland has embraced gender self-identification. Could be wrong.

ThatEscalatedQuickly · 17/08/2018 21:10

Campaigning for what? If you aren't Irish it's probably best not to try to sway what's happening in another country (I say this as an Irish woman) it won't be received well.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 17/08/2018 21:24

Campaigning about what?

The abortion referendum has happened.
Self ID is the law (with some major exemptions eg prisons, priesthood)

I haven't seen an update around the survivors of symphysiotomy recently.

Would help if you were clearer.

Workwoes30 · 17/08/2018 21:25

A. I'm Irish.

B. Gender self-identification and the problems it will cause Irish women. If the UK go down that route it will arrive overnight with little warning.

OP posts:
pachyderm · 17/08/2018 21:31

Irish Twitter is dominated by woke bullies and transmaidens but I would not say they represent most people. 99% of people are completely unaware of self-id being slipped in the back door. It'll be interesting when that unfolds. Allies are always welcome just as we offer sisterhood to others, but ultimately it's something we have to sort out ourselves.

Unless you mean Northern Ireland OP, which is part of the UK?

pachyderm · 17/08/2018 21:31

Ah sorry OP, cross-posted.

bzzbeebzz · 17/08/2018 21:34

It’s already law in Ireland.
Are you really Irish but didn’t know that?
I’ve spoken to friends there and the feedback is that is has unleashed a lot of deviancy but no one is allowed to talk about it or criticise the policy so all you’ll hear officially is the “woke” version of reality, which isn’t reality for ordinary women.

UndercoverGC · 17/08/2018 21:38

I've heard a lot from extreme TRAs along the lines of Ireland having a new law which is 'brilliant' and exactly what they want from the GRA.

ThatEscalatedQuickly · 17/08/2018 21:48

If you are Irish how can you not know what's going on here?

ThatEscalatedQuickly · 17/08/2018 21:51

I’ve spoken to friends there and the feedback is that is has unleashed a lot of deviancy

No evidence of this whatsoever and I speak as someone concerned about the implications of the laws. If anything the trans population here is very small and the issue is not a prominent one. The laws passed without much notice or debate.

Workwoes30 · 17/08/2018 21:54

Anything Google shows talks about self id'ing via a dept of social welfare application process and a gender cert.

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ThatEscalatedQuickly · 17/08/2018 21:56

Yes that's been the process since 2015 I believe. Very few applications for it since then. In the low 3 figures.

NotTerfNorCis · 17/08/2018 21:59

it won't be received well.

True. At the start of the year, a small group of gender critical feminists tried to hold a meeting in Dublin. They were targeted by a letter calling them imperialists and a Twitter slogan, 'Terfs out'. Later they were accused (by a TRA initially) of being in the pay of American evangelicals and deliberately trying to disrupt the pro-choice campaign. Half of Irish feminist Twitter believe that as Fact now.

bzzbeebzz · 17/08/2018 22:00

ThatEscalatedQuickly hopefully that is indeed the case.
One of my “sources” is within academia and I suppose she is exposed to the more extreme aspects.

ThatEscalatedQuickly · 17/08/2018 22:02

Yes in fairness academia is an area where the issue is more prominent. Most of the vocal TRAs are young students or older academics. Outside of that group it's really not a prominent or noteworthy concern for most people, they simply haven't experienced it or know much about the issues.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 17/08/2018 22:03

wiki

nauticant · 17/08/2018 22:04

For anyone posting, just keep in mind Public Service Announcements.

ThatEscalatedQuickly · 17/08/2018 22:05

notTerf most of Irish feminist twitter are liberal feminists, from what I can see, so their response is probably not surprising.

Many Irish people would also feel uneasy with any U.K. based campaigners coming over to 'educate' people, even in the form of debates, it's not really that surprising given the shared history.

NotTerfNorCis · 17/08/2018 22:10

ThatEscalatedQuickly I get that, and perhaps 'we need to talk' was the wrong tone to set. Even so, however they'd approached it they would have got the same response. There was more republicanism than feminism in the reaction.

ThatEscalatedQuickly · 17/08/2018 22:16

Yes there was that element but I also think the organisers were somewhat misguided, especially as the laws had already passed in Ireland at that stage.

pachyderm · 17/08/2018 23:18

Yep, WNTT probably approached it clumsily. Didn't warrant the aggressive response though, or the claims that they represent Irish women.

nauticant you're right and I agree. I wouldn't say anything here I don't stand by in public so it's fine.

ThatEscalatedQuickly · 17/08/2018 23:24

I agree the response was extreme and I was not impressed at the arrogance of assuming they spoke for the entire population or even all Irish women.

It didn't bother me that the debate was proposed to be held in Dublin, I just didn't see the point as the law was already in place and, as I say, it wasn't the best planning on the part of the organisers for various reasons.

NorasBarnacle · 17/08/2018 23:37

My own 2 cents - I am Irish, living in Ireland.

Self ID did slip in the back door, on the coat tails of the Marriage Equality referendum results, and there was no debate or discussion of it - I missed it completely, and I would consider myself reasonably well informed.

Even if it had been an issue, absolutely no feminists would have been involved in questioning or even debating the issues because at the time they were working hard on the longer game (for Irish women) - that of abortion rights. I wonder if we will look back and wonder if we sacrificed too much for the sake of repealing the 8th? Heresy to say that out loud I realise, time will tell I guess.

In any case, Irish feminists, publicly are very liberal (to the point that the Abortion Right Campaign twitter account recently called the women who protested at Pride 'Terfs' - I am ashamed to say. Blush They should know better than to be so abusive to their fellow women.
So it seems to me like mainstream Irish feminists have drunk the Kool Aid.

But it is also possible that because of cultural differences and because of the much smaller numbers involved, Ireland won't see the kinds of tense issues that the UK is experiencing at the moment (and our legislation is different to the proposed UK GRA from what I understand). Being a smaller country sometimes has its advantages, and we may avoid some of the direct conflict that I read about in the UK regarding prisons, health services etc. But I think schools and the 'handling' of Trans students will be a flash point. The number of young people who say they are Trans is growing suddenly, though I doubt we have official statistics.

(I am on a much smaller 'mothers' discussion forum in Ireland, and there is already support for the notion that it is OK for schools to withhold information from parents about students who speak to a school counselor. There is a belief, imo, that the family is dangerous and that professionals/ experts know better. I would not be surprised to see support for schools withholding information about Trans students identifying as the other gender from their parents. I would love to know what Irish teachers think.

I don't think there are any WPUK type groups in Ireland - if they exist they are staying well-hidden.

On a positive note, I saw that despite complaints from TRAs, the proposed abortion legislation (so far) uses the word 'woman' and not 'pregnant person' as some were hoping. I really hope that remains the case.

But I am 'just a mum' and am outside the academic loop of mainstream Irish feminism and politics.

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