Sarah Vine weighs in on gender-neutral loos in the DM

[BoreOfWhabylon]

And for once I find myself in full agreement with her
www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-6069359/SARAH-VINE-writes-sums-modern-world-better-gender-neutral-loos.html

Whitehall is not the only culprit. Everywhere you look — in schools, prisons, universities, local authorities and businesses — you will find people in authority too cowardly to push back against this relentless drive to enforce the whims of the few at the expense of the many.

To dismiss those of us who oppose these so-called gender-neutral spaces as non-inclusive bigots is one of the biggest collective acts of sexual aggression towards women we have seen in recent years.

In seeking to uphold the rights of men to re-cast themselves as female, we are invading precious and vital women-only spaces in a manner that is offensive and even intimidating towards women.

Some of the comments (only a few) think women wanted mixed loos.

i.e "well you asked for equality and this is what you got. Bloody raging femimists!"

She may well be right but she has a weird website with Elle mc pherson and they do peddle some dodgy health advice. It is borderline of course but it is pretty close to Goop territory.

nauticant

I was specifically wondering why you feel conflicted. You are self aware enough to overcome this feeling. Many I dare say are not.

My point is people shouldn't be made to feel conflicted at all to agree with something a person they don't like says. Many on the "progressive" liberal left probably do feel at least somewhat conflicted about some issues, but unlike you they don't think "what is right is paramount". To them groupthink is more important. Likewise on the right. Anything 'liberal' is cursed and a no no.

But I admit it sounds a bit like I was personally criticizing you, that was not my intention, so apologies.

Regarding who gender neutral toilets are for: 1. Non-binary people and everyone else subscribing to queer theory. 2. I think unisex is still better for AGP sufferers, they will have to share with men, yes, but they only care that they also get to be with the women. That is their primary aim, isn't it? The ones who lose out are genuine transsexuals. And of course women.

Feeling conflicted when we find ourselves in agreement with someone odious on a single point is completely natural. Lots of people feel this way.

I honestly think it is unhelpful to suggest that people thinking in this way are being in some way irrational or are wrong. It is better to acknowledge these feelings and then allow people to see beyond them.

Are these just for non binary people, or do they think gender neutral stops the argument between woman and trans people. Like take the toy away and then their is nothing for the kids to fight over.

Yes this is exactly what they think. Having thought about it for all of 5 minutes.

But there's no validation involved with being in mixed sex toilets.

This just makes everyone unhappy...except for the men who either don't care or delight in the idea for perverted or malicious reasons.

Perhaps she will speak to her husband about it, since he is in the Government.

do they think gender neutral stops the argument

Similar (though I don't want to reopen that discussion and derail) to the school which made its uniform 'gender neutral' by removing the skirt option.

I honestly wonder if I agree with Sarah Vine and the Spectator....maybe I am wrong?! I don't normally side with them!

...head explodes

Perhaps she will speak to her husband about it, since he is in the Government.

Yes perhaps. Much as I am no fan of Sarah or her hubby I would very much like to have a chat with her about the "trans umbrella" and what it means.

And organisations need to realise that making gender neutral loos takes more than switching the name badge on the door! I was at an event last year and used a 'gender neutral loo'. When I emerged from my cubicle, a man was peeing in the urinal next to the sink. I don't think he was peeing in the sink, but didn't stay to find out. First time I didn't wash my hands ever (I carry that hand wash spray, fortunately). Gross.

The government was persuaded that the only objectors to trans ideology were Radical Feminists. No-one really knew what a Radical Feminist was, but they reckoned that the term sounded like a hate-group that could be sidelined.

Mumsnetters were another hate group that was whistling in the wind and "the wrong side of history"

So pardon me for the broad smile and a salute to RFs and MNs.

I love, love, love a grassroots movement that expands to embrace "strange bedfellows". If they - male or female - want to be in My Team then that's OK with me. The louder, opinionated and indignant the better.

#SpeakOut #NotoGayConversionTherapyinSchools

All the political parties need a right kick up the jacksie from every quarter of public opinion. Let's see how many other strange bedfellows we can smuggle under the duvet.

The government was persuaded that the only objectors to trans ideology were Radical Feminists. No-one really knew what a Radical Feminist was, but they reckoned that the term sounded like a hate-group that could be sidelined

Yes yes yes to this. I've said before that it bugs me that in the media it's constantly said to be feminists, and RAD fems at that as if it's a minority. They ignore that it's women and some men who have a problem with this. It minimises the issue.

Good article. Perhaps WPUK or someone else with a bit of clout could have a word with Sarah. I get the impression she doesn't realise the full scope of what the government is proposing (despite her husband being a Tory MP). She probably needs to be apprised of the whole transing kids debacle too.

The more mainstream journalists calling this shit out for what it is the better.

Oh and I wish those promoting 'gender neutral' spaces would be more honest and call them what they are: mixed sex.

theOtherPam Ayres ; you are spot on there with 'strange bedfellows'! This fight embraces so many disparate voices and, as long as we are on the same page in the fight, we tolerate and respect our differences. Very refreshing. Womens' rights, freedom of speech, child protection etc. We all start with a different motivation but end up singing the same song.

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-6070521/Life-Marbs-star-Danni-Levy-calls-unisex-toilets-step-far.html#article-6070521

Looking at the comments, people are not happy about this policy.

theOtherPamAyres You've expressed perfectly my feelings on this.

Binary trans people are not asking for gender neutral loos - yet Sarah Vine decides to blame them for any negative impacts of gender neutral loos. Gender neutral loos benefit non-binary people and gender non-conforming women who get misgendered when they use the women's toilet. And if you don't like gender neutral toilets, then don't go to France - they have plenty, some with the urinals unshielded!

But let's put the blame where it belongs - men who cannot behave in a civilised manner.

This is meant to be FWR, but it is funny how a journalist writes a transphobic article and all the sexist articles they have written in the past are forgotten. Just to remind everyone www.theguardian.com/media/2017/mar/28/daily-mail-legs-it-front-page-sexist

You appear not to have bothered reading any of the comments on the thread. Try harder.

Oh Sarahar,

At my appointment with a Conservative MP (not until the end of September by which time I might be able to string a few words together and not get upset), I'm going to ask him to have a word with Sir Christopher Chope.

You know, the cretin that makes a habit of scuppering Private Members bills and pro-women laws like upskirting. Now he's a very strange bedfellow indeed, but I think he owes us one. In fact, I might write to him.

Make room under the duvet for Chopey!

Gender neutral loos benefit non-binary people and gender non-conforming women who get misgendered when they use the women's toilet

Hmm. Have you evidence for this? I.e. the claim that gnc women and non--binary female people wish to share their loos with men?

Make room under the duvet for Chopey!

Genius Pam

Personally, I quite like it when someone I dislike and don’t share general views with says something with which I agree. Call me whimsical, but it feels, dare I say it, like a positive thing. A chink of light.

It’s far worse than when someone I admire comes out with something which offend or disappoints me. That’s depressing.

*offends

Yes Gacapa, I was disappointed to read this week that Caitlin Moran had blocked a GC woman.

OK, so this happened on Twitter a while ago, when this all first started to kick off on Twitter, but it disappoints me.

Right now, the more articles on this bullshit the better. The Mail has a huge circulation.