Artistic Director of Queer Up North speaks out on trans activism, Stonewall and women's rights

[SanctimoniousMorph]

medium.com/@JonnnyBest/the-story-of-my-first-brush-with-trans-activism-and-what-i-learned-3ef13e31fd37

Thanks Rowantrees.

'Cases like Bradley’s are striking not because they represent transwomen, but because they show misconduct that is characteristically male, but not characteristic of females.'

The irony of an ideology that maintains gender stereotypes are indicative of if you are a man or a woman, but denies the 'characteristically male' elements of predatory behaviour.

I completely agree, OhtheHillsareAlive

And regretfully I also have to concede Datun's as always excellent points. The ship has sailed on so much of this.

Additionally, I do believe that the unspoken truth here is as R0wan has pointed out, trans women are male per definition, and from a risk-assessment point of view this must to be kept in mind (as statistically males are sadly FAR more likely to be the perpetrators of violent and sexual crimes.... certainly not all men, definitely not all trans women, etc)

I don't really know what the solution should be. This is why I would like to be able to talk about these concerns like adults, instead of this really weird thing that's happening now where people are scared of posting thoughts on a parenting forum!
We have put people on the moon. I refuse to believe this is an impossible problem.

Of course transwomen who are attracted to men are of zero risk in women's spaces. And the huge majority of transwomen who are attracted to women are of no risk also. The problem at the moment is that the trans movement has conflated so many different areas - not just that cross dressing men are now as trans as transwomen who have had surgery/hormones been living as women for decades but also men who 'feel like' women and do nothing else, are just as trans too. Why on earth can no one talk about these issues, and when people try to talk about it they are called bigots?

Of course transwomen who are attracted to men are of zero risk in women's spaces. And the huge majority of transwomen who are attracted to women are of no risk also.

I am not sure I totally understand your point, Saul. What do you mean zero risk? Of what? What does attraction have to do with it? The point is firstly that it's not just about safety, it's about women's right to privacy and dignity when getting changed or sleeping etc. Secondly, where is the evidence of 'zero risk' or 'no risk'? There is no evidence to suggest that trans women (whatever their orientation) are as a class any more or less likely to pose a risk than men as a class overall. The second point is that male violence against women is not based on attraction, but on power. You get 20 year old men raping women in their 80s. They wouldn't normally date or be attracted to them due to the age gap, but they assert their power over them nevertheless.
It's unhelpful to say 'well real trans is fine- fake trans are the problem'. There is no evidence that gender dysphoria magically makes you a zero risk to women.

There is evidence it doesn't

Charlie yes, you are right. It annoys me when people say things like 'oh, Ian Huntley can't be real trans'. Of course he can- anyone could have gender dysphoria. It's not an affliction that only affects nice people. That's why it's so dangerous to buy in wholesale to the concept that all trans women are oppressed victims who pose no risk whatsoever. All we can reliably say about them is that they are a class of people born biologically male. Some will be a risk, others will not. Most women don't want to get changed with even men who are not a risk if they don't know them.

Most women don't want to get changed with even men who are not a risk if they don't know them.

I've probably said this a hundred times - I don't want to get changed in front of my benign father in law, or share a loo with my son's delightful friends.

And even if I did, there's no way I'd expect other women to. Likewise they can't persuade me their DH/FiL/DS is no problem.

That doesn't mean I don't have sympathy for men with gender dysphoria.

I do. They're not women though. It's a medical condition. Not a social movement.

I think het men are significantly more of a threat to women than gay men, and I'd say that is reflected statistically. There are differences, and there is a gradient, between different groups of transwomen, and it is useful to be able to articulate them. Late transitioners, AGP, transwomen attracted to men, transwomen who ID as lesbians, tranwomen who have had surgery and hormones, those who haven't, transwomen who used to be cross dressers [ie Eddie Izzard] and those who felt 'female' from a very early age, whatever you think of that.

In broad brush strokes, transwomen like Paris Lees do not represent the same threat to women as 'trans women' like Ian Huntley. Feel awful just putting those two in the same sentence - but trying to illustrate a point, apologies to PL.

As I said, transwomen have been using women's spaces for years and their rights, and their their unspoken agreement with women, is now being threatened by others on the TRA bandwagon, and I think it is useful to be able to differentiate.

“ so courage age does call out to courage “ that will stick with me - lovely expression.
Thankyou for sharing this wonderful article.

Saul you don’t know that. There are no statistics saying there is in your words, zero risk. There are statistics suggesting that transition has little impact on offending patterns.
Gay men might not try to sexually assault women at the same rate but nobody has said that gay men and women should share spaces. The point is that women should have the right to separate spaces with no male bodies, regardless of how risky those males are.
As for Ian Huntley, you have no idea whether or not he has gender dysphoria. That’s the whole point of this debate. You cannot say ‘well, X is totally safe because they look pretty and are young but Y is not because they transitioned later in life and look manly’. Paris Lees has been in prison whereas Jane Fae has not for instance. Why is Paris the one who is zero risk in this?

As I said, transwomen have been using women's spaces for years and their rights, and their their unspoken agreement with women, is now being threatened by others on the TRA bandwagon, and I think it is useful to be able to differentiate.

You're talking about two different things saul.

In terms of physical safety, yes I'm sure you can make a distinction, based on intent or motivation. Unfortunately, you can't identify intent or motivation. But I understand that there is a distinction there, as a concept.

Then there is the threat to the definition of the word woman, as a political concept.

PL is a direct threat to that, claiming that female objectification is hot and being treated like a piece of meat is sexy. And saying that as a woman. As far as I know Paris Lees falls in to the attracted to men category.

There is certainly a debate to be had about the concept of what constitutes a transwoman. But it's fairly pointless, in terms of access, as none of it is verifiable.

It's also as far as I'm concerned, entirely separate as to what constitutes a woman. Nothing constitutes a woman, other than being an adult human female.

But, if you have transwomen friends, for example, who fall into the transsexual bracket, then I completely understand the desire to make a distinction.

SaulGoodwoman
Until very recently I would have agreed with you.
Sadly the complete silence of that community and their failure (with a few notable exceptions) to call out threats, violence and intimidation is rapidly leading me to see the whole trans movement as untrustworthy. This is an exceptionally wealthy and influential movement.
Imagine how easy it would have been for the "leading" lobby groups to say that threats and intimidation are unacceptable. What if they said that the safety and welfare of women and children must be prioritised over the demands of rapists and sex offenders to access sex segregated spaces. Instead, they actively foster and promote the unacceptable.
Unless there is a swift turn around from their systematic and public intimidation of women defending sex segregation etc, then I am starting to see anyone involved in this movement who doesn't openly condemn the intimidation as complicit in it. I know that's unfair on lots of levels but it's how I am starting to feel.

If you want me to change 'zero' risk to 'minimal' risk then that's fine, I will do that because i can't statistically prove that transwomen who are attracted to men are not a risk to women. But I believe that to be the case. I do accept that male bodied transwomen make women uncomfortable in women's spaces, whatever their sexual orientation. I have already said I hate the gas-lighting that goes on when transwomen say that natal women are obsessed with their genitals [I know everyone skim reads these long threads but still]

If you don't feel that there is a use in articulating the differences between groups of transwomen then we will have to agree to disagree. I have lost a morning of work now so must get on with work - apols if I don't post back.

I also don't want to derail this very useful thread sparked by Jonny's article by an argument between gender crit fems.

Actually no datun I wasn't talking about two different things. I was talking very specifically about the issue of transwomen in women's spaces. I am well aware of the other issues that impact on women's sex based rights and characterisation as such, and well aware that transwomen such as PL undermine that as they seem to with to do away with sex based rights as a group.

sorry typing hurriedly - they seem to wish to do away with sex based rights - ie - sex as a protected characteristic. Ok need to go now. Thankyou Jonny again.

Hi again. Here's a few responses and thoughts in response to ideas that have come up in this thread.

Firstly, it's now been 36 hours and the article has been read more than 7000 times. I've been called a terf twice, and that's the total abuse I have received. I'm hoping to collaborate with a female writer on a joint piece about this vast disparity btwn men/women r.e. receiving abuse and what we can conclude from it. (That won't be a pretty article...)

twofalls
Really hope the article helps with your friend - please let me know if you can.

Charliethefeminist
I totally agree r.e. Stonewall as a 'debate-terminating slam dunk'. We have to gradually chip away and get people questioning Stonewall. I will do my bit. The question of how Stonewall is undermining the concept of same-sex attraction is something new to me - it's only since the article as published that I've discovered this. I will engage with Dyketagnan on twitter again about it and keep thinking. Wow - it's unbelievable isn't it - Stonewall not being into same-sex attraction! We truly are down the rabbit hole...

R0wantrees
Thanks for the GayStar news info - I didn’t know any of that. Really useful.

SaulGoodwoman
Btw I am definitely of the view that transwomen have been using women's toilets, etc, for ever, with an unspoken consent and mutual respect. But this has changed due to the now very odd idea that anyone, even a bloke with a beard, can now 'identify' as a woman

I think this is a crucial point. It’s the extreme ‘gender identity’ concept which has undermined this ‘unspoken consent’. Imposing this concept has damaged relationships between women and trans women and undermined what trust may have been there. This is the point we have to find ways to communicate as widely as possible, in the most persuasive way we can. I hold to the belief that most people, if they really think about it, will see what a terrible idea ‘gender identity’ is. As I say in the article, those who feel they have a gender identity are welcome to it. But nothing has persuaded me that the concept should be acknowledged in public policy or treated as scientific in any way.

I also love this:
Yes I know that gender stereotypes mean men who wish to present in a very feminine way feel, in so many patriarchal societies, that this must mean they are women. But this is the society they have to live in . Attacking transwomen and transmen who have led lives under the radar and who feel that living as women/men is the most healing and positive way for them to live is not something I want to do.

I agree 100% and you explain it perfectly.

SarahAr
Thanks for your comment. Self-ID is, effectively, ‘gender identity’ written into law. Self-ID flows from the concept of gender identity - it is the conceptual underpinning of the proposal. I would argue that, without gender identity, there IS no Self-ID.

ChattyLion
Those links are great - thanks. I am grateful for all suggestions of research. The more the better!

SilverBuckles
I love your posts. Thank you.

AbsintheFriends
That what I wrote might be useful in the sort of circumstances you describe is just great. I had no idea whether anyone would care a bit about what I wrote - being useful as a writer is the best feeling. Thank you.

Heresyandwitchcraft
Silverbuckles
PeakPants
SaulGoodwoman
Heresy
Datun
I am with you 100% on this issue of how self-ID undermines our capacity for mutual trust. I hadn’t thought of it in terms of the trust that women are asked to demonstrate when trans women use their single-sex facilities, but I see now that this is a root issue and one reason why gender ID is such a corrosive idea.

Nauticant
one thing that is continually glossed over is that even when you put aside risk, the effects of self-ID are that women feel less comfortable enforcing their boundaries

I hadn’t considered this. It’s such an important point.

OhtheHillsareAlive
With you 100%. This is the bedrock of the argument. It’s for each woman to decide for herself and biological males just have to accept that. Some women are happy to be inclusive of trans women, some (in some or all circumstances) are not. This ain’t transphobia - it’s every woman’s right. It’s autonomy, for heaven’s sake. If there’s a hill I’m willing to die on, it’s this.

Thanks guys. You are really helping me to think about where to go next with writing. I appreciate it so much.

Thanks Jonny for summing that up so well.

Heresyandwitchcraft, I just had a really odd PM from you - titled 'thanksforyourusername' and then the actual message deleted. Bit worried what that is all about?

And I am actually fucking angry about the imperialising, arrogant attitude of transactivists - who were formerly MEN - who are telling me that my identity through my body, and the history within which my body & identity were formed - are not for me to determine

That's it in a nutshell really isn't it. Women are whatever men tell them they are, and so it continues as it always has.

Just wanted to say thanks to Jonny for engaging with MN. It's an unusual feeling! I'm not a prolific poster as some of these women are so erudite, and say everything I want to say but better. But I'm so glad that you are here

And I am actually fucking angry about the imperialising, arrogant attitude of transactivists - who were formerly MEN - who are telling me that my identity through my body, and the history within which my body & identity were formed - are not for me to determine

Amen to that. No thanks, I don't want the opinion of someone who lived as a man until the age of 50 that perhaps I should stop focusing on unimportant shit like my female body and the way this has ensured oppression through the centuries, and instead embrace the real problem which is that someone said his penis might not be welcome in the ladies changing rooms and how hateful this is.

I can't remember where I read it but some trans woman was like 'trans women and cis women have the same goals. We both want above all to be recognised as women'. No, you chump. That is not my overarching aim. It's pretty fucking obvious that I am a woman and as a result, I get paid less, less adequate medical care, sexual abuse, misogyny etc.

Thanks Johnny and also for pursuing the extraordinary imbalance of response towards men and women who talk about this. To us it seems really clear. But to many it seems to be invisible. Are people wilfully blind? Who knows. The more exposure, the better, that's for sure.

There is one thread on here I would positively urge you to read @JonnyBest. It is this one:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3101834-trans-widows-escape-committee

It's a jigsaw piece that is ignored by just about everyone.

Believe me, read that, about people's real world experiences, and it'll be like seeing this issue in 3D technicolor rather than 2D black and white.

(SaulGoodwoman That's weird. I did write a message earlier just to say that your name made me laugh as I loved Breaking Bad. Didn't think it was really a thread-thing though.)

Thanks @Nauticant - I will read the thread!

I've just realised I can @ usernames to reach you all directly. I just bolded you in my message. Sorry...I'm new to MN and a bit slow ;-)

Now, where's that 'edit post' button!!

Ah ok heresy no worries! Just got a bit paranoid!