The Times has succumbed

[Charliethefeminist]

My subscription may not be long for this world. Front page online drivel this morning: 'I became a woman at the age of 81'.

Thought it would be something lovely about a pensioner embracing radical feminism!

No, it's not.

It's juxtaposed against an article about a charity giving advice to old people about changing gender. I thought it was interesting. I assumed it would be a bit sneery but it wasn't. However, the person in question also had views on what "sex change" means that would be regarded as transphobic by many anti-female rights activists.

While the article isn't as critical as, frankly, I'd have liked, it's a different perspective and I'll be interested to see the comments.

I didn't read it as The Times suddenly having become rabid genderists.

An interesting read. I reckon it's important to present both sides of an issue. We can't rage about the #nodebate and then complain when there's balanced reporting.

I agree with you both on the principles of reportage. However I believe this is deep, soft PR. I think it's 'see how harmless we are' advertising for Self ID.

I agree with womanspeaking all voices should be heard.

I deliberately read a range of newspapers so as not to live in an echo chamber. I currently have both a Telegraph sub (on women's rights, they carry everything from articles by Julie Bindel to "not my Nigel" articles, I find) and a Times sub. So long as they're carrying articles on both sides of a debate, I'm happy. I'm less happy with the Guardian's attitude of censorship by omission/deletion, to be frank.

If the Times stopped running Janice Turner's articles I would be worried.

The comments below (a few of which are unpleasant) indicate that people aren't going along with this.

You can’t win an argument unless you have and understand both sides of it.

And the Sunday Times is slightly different to The Times.

Unasked questions in the articles:

Were all the transitioners MtF? (I'm guessing yes)

How about interviewing one of the wives?

What support does Age Concern give to them?

But it would absolutely be ageist to deny services to older people.

Please don't misunderstand me- all sides of the debate to be heard is quite right. But these personal stories, that's not debate. They should be balanced by detransition and dedistance personal stories.

That's what I mean by succumbed. Report the story from all sides, absolutely. PR - I'm not here for that. If the Times has moved to unquestioning soft PR, I'm out.

When the Times published Debbie Hayton's article they didn't include the opposite side.
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/self-identification-will-not-help-transgender-people-n2pm780wx?shareToken=5d7c4029b776fd2e733553441150ba57

I do understand your argument OP but then we're on the same slippery slope that trans activists are currently stranded on as they argue that only their experience is valid and the rest of us are all hateful bigots. We must hear all dissenting and different views

One thing struck me about that article-Rose claimed getting surgery was easy-just a 5 minute chat of a 40 minute interview.....surely that can't be true....what if someone has dementia & says they want a sex change op?
I think we need as much press as possible to wake general population up to the issue of self id, & the comments section is great for making sensible statements.

I think this is a really interesting angle and I’m glad the times have covered it.

OP why don’t you ask to change the thread title to something more along the lines of ‘impact of transition in older adults and impact of dementia on a transitioned adult ’? (Ok thread naming is not my skill!)

What concerns me is the impact of older adults suffering with dementia and the impact of a transitioned body on that illness.

I guess we don’t yet have a cohort old enough yet. My grandmother has severe dementia and she currently presents as her 10 year old self. If she had transitioned as an adult, her current self would not understand why she had a surgically and/or hormonal altered body.

Also, she receives personal care as her dementia is far reaching now. In later years, will surgically altered bodies require specialist care assistance?

Er. Is this because you looked at the website today? Today is the Sunday Times. The Times and the Sunday Times are different publications with different editors (although from the same publishing stable and with the same URL), and have different editoral lines on this.

Like how the Mail and the Mail on Sunday have different editorial lines on Brexit (Mail under Paul Dacre is for leave, MoS under Geordie Greig is for remain).

Yeah I got my days muddled up

Woman, because its not about that.

In later years, will surgically altered bodies require specialist care assistance?

I believe that a man who has undergone perineal urethrostomy would be at significantly greater risk of recurring UTIs than one who has not (fuck with Nature's physical immune defence designs at your peril), and the risk of UTIs is higher in older people anyway. The bladder lining never goes back to normal with repeat UTIs and just becomes ever more prone to chronic infection. As most people with a loved one who has or had dementia will know, an active UTI makes the signs of dementia worse, and it may be that having chronic inflammation in the body- such as chronic UTIs- contributes significantly to the progression of the irreversible brain changes causing dementia. Plus- unless your surgeon has done a super job of creating some sort of gutter effect at the point where urine exits: oh the urine scalding! Unless you are taking meticulous care of the site multiple times daily. Which people with dementia and probably co morbidities eg arthritic fingers, failing eyesight, less muscular ability to hold the posture required, do not.

I would also be concerned about people at the other end of life. If you give puberty blockers to a little girl, does she end up in adulthood with a little infantile vulva predisposing her to vaginitis? And not much tissue to work with when a gender reassignment surgeon is trying to create something cosmetically acceptable but functional enough to reduce the frequency of UTIs?

Fair enough OP! I thought it was a thread to discuss an article about an older person transitioning which is really interesting.

And I saw sone posts recently about trying to name threads in a meaningful way. Apologies to you for that!

Anyhow, I agree with the PP who says that any transitioning services available to adults should absolutely be available to all older adults too. And the nhs must provide the medical services to keep these transitioning adults healthy to their end of life.

Quite where the money for all this is going to come from is beyond me! But that’s a while other debate.

powershower thank you for your reply and I agree with the points you make regarding the specialist personal care required to ensure health and dignity.

WomanLifeisGoodish
There was an article recently, which did get quoted on MN, about older people with dementia who had transitioned younger and were very distressed by their surgically altered selves as they no longer matched their remembered identities. It was very sad.

Thank you .beamur I will search that out and gave a read.

I think it's 'see how harmless we are' advertising for Self ID.

I didn't read it like that - this person was a transsexual who transitioned 'properly', and made some comment on 'obviously male people' who didn't, and those who thought transition would fix problems of not being a success as a male.

I don't think anyone has linked to it yet, here's a sharetoken link:
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-became-a-woman-at-the-age-of-81-d9q0jcx8z?shareToken=058d7674da2678a87d9240906154450d

And the preceding article
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/pensioners-get-tips-on-changing-gender-j0ph37qd7?shareToken=aace4ad57c0aeb9f4e62b87cbadd234e

Interesting article. I do wonder about such serious surgery at an advanced age. Both my grandparents put off non-urgent surgery at a similar age as they were advised it might put too much strain on their bodies.
That combined with the '5 minute' comment is a bit worrying. I have no issue with an informed adult making whatever choices they fancy, but it does feel like the continuation of a trend to minimise quite invasive surgery that can have serious side effects and complications.

I'm willing to be wrong about this. I have heard you all!