Graham Linehan interview

[BoreOfWhabylon]

It's a long podcast. He first talks about his recent cancer diagnosis and then at 30 minutes in about his entry into the trans debate

anirishmanabroad.podbean.com/e/graham-linehan-on-his-cancer-journey-and-father-ted-the-musical-episode-251/

Thanks for sharing. I’ll be listening to this on my long drive tomorrow.

"Vulnerable women need spaces of their own"

"Huge ramifications for women's sport..." "It's women who have to make allowances for other people."

"Every kid goes through a stage where their body - or the role that's been assigned to them - is wrong." "Every pore is open at a certain age."

"In Huntley is a man. A man killed those girls."

"This issue, this is ridiculous. I'm not going to pretend this isn't happening."

I love Graham Linehan. I wish him recovery.

He really gets it doesn't he?

Bookmarking for a more sensible hour!

He so does Bore

A rare man indeed...

Bookmarking for later when I have time.

We need more like you Graham ... can I clone you?

As a (gay) man I have found that whenever I try and highlight any of the GC concerns with my male friends I quickly realise most just don't understand WHY there is a need for female only spaces. I believe this is just ignorance rather than a wilful misunderstanding of the situation though.

There is often talk here about the competition to be as "woke" as possible. While I think this can be the case, perhaps amongst those who are prone to shouting about things online, amongst my friends I think it's more subtle in that we have just been conditioned to see all social causes of those discriminated against as something we should support. Suggesting that some of the demands need questioning before being granted, in their eyes, positions me as a transphobic bigot almost by default. Mentioning the affirmation model regarding children, and how it could be viewed as gay elimination therapy is usually the topic that gets me called crazy!

When talking with my male friends I now just try and raise points quietly and without seeming like I've researched anything. People generally agree with the arguments but often cannot follow the arguments to their logical conclusions, or don't have enough awareness of what TRA's campaign for or who they are to even realise there is a problem in the first place.

For example, I have found that highlighting the mess around people like Jess NUS is a way of showing my male friends that not all trans people are equal or motivated by the same forces when it comes to transitioning. While we can never be sure, I'm pretty confident Jess would have signed up for self ID and this would have been incredibly problematic and it's easy to show why. My position is that we definitely do need gatekeeping but that this gatekeeping could be made a little bit easier. Highlighting the differences between Jess and "genuine" trans is an argument that doesn't seem so bigoted.

Yes, Graham is doing a lot of work, but it's going to take a lot of conversations with all our male friends to clarify why more critical thought needs applied!

Chambeni, perhaps get your friends to think about Iran, where gender surgery is literally gay conversion therapy (state and religion approved) and let them join the dots themselves.

I’ve often thought chambeni that until this affects men then no headway will be made.

What aspects of this do you think could or would affect men? What’s it going to take to get men to realise what’s happening?

Well I think a big part of the problem is that it just doesn't affect men in the same way.

For me, it was primarily a concern over how GNC children are being guided towards medicalisation too early but that doesn't seem to have much traction with my other friends like it did with me.

I think a lot of men will just look at GLs tweets and think "why do you care?"

Although Hampstead ponds did show men are quite unhappy when female men invade their spaces

Men actually want their own spaces as much as women do. The difference is that they don't have to constantly defend them, or justify them. They're just left alone to get on with it. Just as an example, there are quite a few barbers that refuse to cut women's hair (and some refuse women on the premisis). They're not constantly hounded and threatened on social media or called bigots because 'transmen are men'.

You might want to point out to your friends that a large proportion of children who question gender either end up fine with it or just turn out to be gay. Affirmative treatment and routing down the medical path basically tells those children they are not OK to be gay, they must be straight and in the wrong body.

I find that seriously worrying - it’s gay conversion therapy and it’s wrong to tell children that they can change sex. They are just perfectly normal children who may turn out to be gay in future. It’s erasing homosexuality.

And yes I agree with you that it’s not affecting men yet.

"Well I think a big part of the problem is that it just doesn't affect men in the same way."

That's the problem women and girls have, it's not taken seriously because it doesn't touch men.

It's a while since I listen to the podcast, so I hope I remember this correctly, but when Graham talked about male people in women's sport, the presenter said it works both ways - there will be transmen in male sports. Does he really believe that it will be just as easy for TM to join male teams as TW entering female teams?

I think it's a mixture of not really understanding what trans is, and not really giving a fuck about what happens to women and girls.

chambeni there are definitely plenty of gay men out there that see the problems, I think perhaps there's not really a good place for discussion of the details, though? You could try r/gendercritical, there are loads of "peak trans" stories there.

Great podcast - I think Graham sounds nearly as frustrated as Germaine Greer!

Plenty of men/people care deeply about things that don't directly affect them. Palestine would be an example. But one of the problems of living in a patriarchy and that being completely normal and all anybody has any experience of is that men (and some women!) can be blind to the struggles women actually face. I didn't report any of the sex crimes against me because it was usual in our culture at the time to see what happened as my fault. I think the current Liberal ideology my peers are swept up in can be similarly hard to step back from and critically examine.

I may be completely wrong, but wonder if the fact gay men have often been on the receiving end of prejudice themselves makes some of them reluctant to examine when they might have been misogynistic? I grew up poor and white. I had some much wealthier non white friends. It certainly took me a long time to understand their particular struggles with racism; I couldn't get past my envy at their relative wealth.

I love Graham Linehan and I've followed him on Twitter for a long time.
He talks with a great deal of sense and knowledge.

chambeni raises a pertinent point;
''we have just been conditioned to see all social causes of those discriminated against as something we should support.''

and;
''When talking with my male friends I now just try and raise points quietly and without seeming like I've researched anything.''

That's the problem right there. Our problems are invisible to most men.
We can't just state our case, because people don't listen. They dismiss our problems, they don't carry equal weight.
We have to spell everything out and try to put the listener in our position.

Very well said Graham.

Thanks, OP, for sharing this.

I noticed that at the end of the interview the presenter mentioned links were provided for anyone affected by issues raised in the podcast. The points raised so well by Graham Linehan are apparently being covered by Transgender Equality Network Ireland! Em, no!

If this was in the UK, I'd be getting in touch and suggesting that, in the interests of balance, a link be provided to Women's Place UK, but I don't know if there is an Irish equivalent. Graham made a great many excellent points in the interview, but anyone looking for more information from a gender critical perspective is given nothing.

(Oh, and when I had a look at the TENI website, and clicked a couple of times, I found that I am banned from a trans woman's twitter feed. Someone I've never heard of before, far less interacted with. And I'm rarely on twitter.)

Oh, he got the all clear after a check up following his operation to remove a testicle.
He was expecting a load of chemotherapy but none was needed.

That's brilliant news, thanks for sharing SimonBridges.

Haven't read all of the comments yet, but an argument I think I am going to try with one of my gay male friends is:

How would you feel if you fell in love with a guy and then discovered that he'd had his genitals removed and wore a binder to hide his hormonally grown breasts from a period when he had been confused in his life and had transed? Would it bother you? Would you be angry at the surgeons and doctors that mutilated him? Would you wish that he'd been more cautious?

I think this might make them contemplate the enormity of it all. Especially the horror of a dickless man.

Sorry. Read all the comments now.

Great to hear all is well with GL.

Great podcast. Glad to hear GL has the all clear. Thank you Graham for using your platform for this.