Debunking gender ‘facts’

[jellyfrizz]

This looks like a positive initiative: www.theguardian.com/education/2018/aug/10/scientists-launch-campaign-to-overturn-gender-stereotypes

Has anyone here read Inferior?

UpstartCrow
To your first article about the rate at which men and women talk, this is more of a psychological rather than a social one in my opinion, as naturally women are not as disagreeable as men and therefore in a business setting are less likely to succeed as high ranking positions in any company are competetive and require confrontations and disagreement, not that women can never occupy those positions as they frequently do, just men occupy them more often given their more disagreeable natures. And as to the second article about programming even when women did program a significant amount the range of women who occupied it was about 30-50% of all programmers, and in 1986 after all the propaganda about male superiority in programming women made up 37% showing that it wasn't the propaganda against women that made them stop it was their own choice to stop and if attitudes towards female programming have gotten worse since 1986 then that's something I can't believe. And the reason why the value of the work has gone up for the work isn't because men are doing it, it's because programming has become more and more complicated and less and less people are doing it.

Yes men and women have different brains in general not ''inferior'' or ''superior" just different, obviously there are exceptions but women and men think differently and their career choices reflect this, women are naturally more maternal and caring in their nature and this makes sense given their role in reproduction, hence they make up the majority of care professions, and men are more selfish and are more likely to obsess and disagree, hence why they make up the majority of fields which this requires, such as top executive positions which require people to work 60+ hour weeks which men are more likely to do, to deny that men and women are different in their brains is very silly since if we had the same brains there would be no psychological differences between men and women which is categorically false.

And please don't link articles about women being oppressed in Japan and other countries that are obviously not for gender equality, women are literally being beheaded in the middle East for being raped, I'm talking about oppression of women in the West preferably in the UK and US where most feminism activists live and if it is still needed here.

Yes men and women have different brains in general not ''inferior'' or ''superior" just different

Nope, no they don't. That belief is one of the main causes of sexism. Perhaps you should read the book for plenty of scientific evidence about how this is not the case?

Yes men and women have different brains in general not ''inferior'' or ''superior" just different, obviously there are exceptions but women and men think differently and their career choices reflect this, women are naturally more maternal and caring in their nature and this makes sense given their role in reproduction, hence they make up the majority of care professions, and men are more selfish and are more likely to obsess and disagree, hence why they make up the majority of fields which this requires, such as top executive positions which require people to work 60+ hour weeks which men are more likely to do, to deny that men and women are different in their brains is very silly since if we had the same brains there would be no psychological differences between men and women which is categorically false.

Yeah. No, you're wrong. For example, "psychological differences" tend to be more related to nurture, socialisation and experience.

as naturally women are not as disagreeable as men

Bollocks.

men are more selfish and are more likely to obsess and disagree

Just the arseholes.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/hope-relationships/201402/brain-differences-between-genders%3famp

stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different.html

If men and women's brains are the same then, why are women twice as likely to develop clinical depression? Why are men 40 times more likely to develop schizophrenia? Why are men 4 times more likely to develop autism. Of course a lot of the differences between men and women's behaviour is nurture but to pretend most of them are societies doing is false, how can a disparity of 40:1 be accounted by nurture? And if so how?

Why are men 40 times more likely to develop schizophrenia?

They aren't?:

Conditions such as ADHD (attention deficit hyperactivity disorder) and schizophrenia did not have statistically significant differences between genders in adults.

(from www.theguardian.com/society/2013/may/22/women-men-mental-illness-study)

Also, men are not 'more likely to develop autism', they are more likely to be diagnosed as having autism. Perhaps more women are being diagnosed with clinical depression because they go to the doctors about it whereas men have been socially conditioned to believe they have to be strong and not have actually have emotions other than anger.

Veryverysilly if you are really interested in this, I suggest you read the book because it goes through all of the studies in the articles you linked to.

Thank you OP. The book looks very interesting and the Kindle version is reasonable.

Cordelia Fine's Delusions of Gender is also a very good and readable debunking of a lot of the supposed neuroscience of gendered brains.

Someone needs to read the book

And just to be explicit - that's the book in the OP, not "men are from mars women are from venus" nor an evangalical tome about how men and women are "different but equal and therefore both better equipped and happier when they take up different roles in the household where the man is in charge.

Am lol at all these posts TBH.

Anyway - FWIW

Barracker I agree with you. I suspect the article misrepresents the book to an extent -

Because saying that if there is a problem with structural inequality / discrimination against a group it is up to the children in that group to attempt to overcome it all by themselves and one at a time is not a very useful approach!

I find it amusing that someone has come onto the thread to explain the reason that men are so much more successful in science and business than women is because they are total bastards.

Interesting idea, not one I've heard before. And they say it's feminists who are man haters!

Not total bastards? being disagreeable or selfish I believe, which aren't inherently bad it's just beneficial in certain career choices and I didn't say all men, it's just men are more likely to be like that, hence the disparity.

VeryVerySilly Mon 13-Aug-18 13:53:54
If men and women's brains are the same then, why are women twice as likely to develop clinical depression?

Risk factors for depression include sexual assault and post partum depression.

Being selfish and disagreeable isn't inherently bad?

Well no but it must make you pretty unpleasant to be around aka a total bastard.

Most people would say that being selfish (caring nothing about anything except yourself, keeping things for yourself and from other people, making sure other people can't have nice stuff as you want it for you

PLUS

Being disagreeable (by defnition a disagreeable person is not one that it is in any way pleasant to be around - the oppostite having an agreeable personality ie pleasant to be around)

Equals being a bit of a bastard, probably a total one.

I wouldn't be interested in working with or being friends with someone who was "selfish and disagreeable" how many people would? These are the character traits of a normal toddler, not an adult.

I mean you're the one who called successful men "selfish and disagreeable" and now you're complaining when this is interpreted perfectly fairly to mean total bastard / utter sod / extremely unpleasant bloke.

Agreeable:
"quite enjoyable and pleasurable; pleasant.
"a cheerful and agreeable companion"
synonyms: pleasant, pleasing, enjoyable, pleasurable, nice, to one's liking, appealing, engaging, satisfying, fine, charming, delightful"

Disagreeable:
"unfriendly and bad-tempered.
"Henry was always a very disagreeable boy"
synonyms: bad-tempered, ill-tempered, ill-natured, ill-humoured, curmudgeonly, cross, crabbed, irritable, grumpy, peevish, snappish, petulant, sulky, sullen, prickly;"

PLUS selfish = total bastard. Miserable fucker? Not someone that anyone wants to be around to be sure.

I work in financial services and I can tell you that the senior managers are NOT like this, they are extremely agreeable on the whole - you don't get far in anything if people can't stand to be near you.

Anyway your words not mine.

Here's selfish:

selfish
ˈsɛlfɪʃ/Submit
adjective
(of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for other people; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.
"I joined them for selfish reasons"
synonyms: egocentric, egotistic, egotistical, egomaniacal, self-centred, self-regarding, self-absorbed, self-obsessed, self-seeking, self-serving, wrapped up in oneself, inward-looking, introverted, self-loving;"

Yep I'm comfortable with total bastard as a summary of men who are "selfish and disagreeable" thanks

Your words, like I say.

Really it's not feminists who hate men is it - when you read shit like this. And given as a reason why men are more successful than women! Which it's clearly not.

Just read the book and stop splarting random unsupported insults to both sexes all over the thread, huh?

Again selfish and disagreeable are characteristics not necessarily insults, it depends on who you are, those characteristics have their benefits and downsides, just the same as being agreeable/selfless does, for example being like that would help you as a stockbroker/bachelor but wouldn't work very well for a stay at home dad.

Good grief.

Seriously?

Again selfish and disagreeable are characteristics not necessarily insults, it depends on who you are, those characteristics have their benefits and downsides, just the same as being agreeable/selfless does, for example being like that would help you as a stockbroker/bachelor but wouldn't work very well for a stay at home dad.

Yeah. No, you're wrong again. I'd stop digging if I were you.

Well if you could explain why I'm wrong that would be great, you know do a bit of feminist activism and educate the un-enlightened?