Why are so many women facilitating the patriarchy?

[readysetcake]

As I sit here trapped under a sleeping baby perusing the internet, it eems to me that so many women online are ready to tear other women down for every little thing. Particularly when it comes to to parenting, but not exclusively.

I’m not one for the sisterhood supporting women regardless of their behaviour. If your behaviour is disckish I believe you should be called on it, regardless of sex or gender. Yet it seems to me that unless women are the “perfect” parent, daughter, wife, worker then they are vilified online by many.

Im sure this has been discussed before but it just seems to me to be getting worse. I feel that while women are tearing other women down for not living up to a perfect ideal the progress of women is hampered and women are kept down. Do people agree?

Women are criticised by other women for bringing children into low income families, critised for bringing up entitled children in well off families, criticised for not having independent wealth when they are stay at home mums, criticised for not spending enough time with their children when they work, criticised for letting themselves go, criticised for spending too much effort and money on their appearance. I could go on and on but you get the idea.

Is this negative narrative an accidental byproduct of social media? Is it women putting other women down in a bid to make them look good to men or just make themselves feel better about their own life choices? Or is it men perpetuating it and women are for some reason falling into line with it as women have done for centuries?

Or am I talking out of my arse and it’s all in my head?!

Isn't it just a different kind of competitiveness to what men have? Men's competitiveness is about succeeding in work, women's is about looks and child-rearing.

Some humans are just like that, unfortunately More focused on what other people are doing than on their own lives.

Sadly, some of it is guilt. Stay st home mumd and working mums sometimes feel guilty. Thet off losd their guilt by making others feel guilty.

In terms of competitiveness around looks I feel this is all around attracting a mate!

Females do not need to live like this.

I make an effort to compliment other women on their well-behaved kids, their great lools, their brilliant jobs etc. I am not in competition with any other woman.

They off load...

Men's competitiveness is about succeeding in work, women's is about looks and child-rearing.

Ergghh... Sorry? Did the fact that you're typing this on the Internet not tip you off to the fact that it's 2018, not 1950?

Ergghh... Sorry? Did the fact that you're typing this on the Internet not tip you off to the fact that it's 2018, not 1950?

We're discussing the OP... it seems to me that so many women online are ready to tear other women down for every little thing. Particularly when it comes to to parenting, but not exclusively.

I agree with you OP, it seems to be getting worse. I did used to wonder if it was me, maybe I noticed it more as I got older. Or maybe the cool girls have more opportunities to virtue signal now.

Carbolic from what I observe amongst many of my friends and colleagues this is common. Not all of course.

But, regarding the OP, I think a large majority of it is that women simply aren't aware / unconscious bias due to brain washing by the patriarchy.

Or maybe the cool girls have more opportunities to virtue signal now.

Does the rampant irony of this statement entirely escape you?

Sadly, some of it is guilt. Stay st home mumd and working mums sometimes feel guilty. Thet off losd their guilt by making others feel guilty.

I completely agree. We are all under SO much pressure. A woman needs to have fun and travel AND build her career AND find a partner AND buy a house AND have her babies, all between 20 and 30. After that, even if "she has it all", she will still need to make compromises- does she let go of her career or does she put the child into childcare for long hours? There are just not enough hours in the week to have a 40h job, dedicate enough quality time to the kids, spend lovely relaxed time with the partner, keep a social life, run a household, and keep one's nails the correct colour for the season. So we all compromise. A LOT. And then when someone makes different choices, we justify our own by pointing out what's wrong with theirs.

It's sad. The pressure should be outwards - towards working places to provide adequate maternoty leave, towards partners to take an adequate share of the housekeeping and child rearing, towards the media to stop promoting unrealistic standards.

Complete speculation here:
Women police other women all the time. I don't really know why we do this, but it's something I remember from a young age - when my girl friends would flick through a ladies' magazine and judge all the women in it. I agree with Juells that this may be a form of competition, or a way to make sense of the world through trying to meet the standards we set for the roles of "mother" "daughter" "wife" etc. But then we have to seek validation for the "success" in these roles in strange ways, because we don't get monetary reward or media accolades for being an awesome mother - just plaudits from other people, (mainly) women. The perverse thing is that this system for an outside form of social reward for performing these roles doesn't really work unless other women buy into it, so perhaps this is why we need everyone to join in?

It's interesting that in societies that put really high taxes on anyone earning over a certain level plus very good child care/ maternity and paternity leave, priorities for men change. (I think Denmark?)

So they are more interested / focussed on family as the ultimate goal rather than earning ££££££

I honestly think girls are conditioned from an early age through 'girl' toys (think barbies etc) to judge each other on looks etc.

In reply to heresyandwitchcraft

I don't really notice it tbh. Maybe I choose to avoid that sort of thing so I don't see it.

That term 'judgy' was coined on mn wasn't it? Where people seek validation on mumsnet for basically being a judgemental, snobby busybody and depending which board you are on they'll get either supported or roasted for it.

I stick to FWR where people are generally more humane and forgiving unless they get spooked by something.

Irl I tend to see women being supportive of each other - but then again I may be filtering out the 'judginess'.

I agree some of it could be women’s competitive nature made worse by social media making it easy to be competitive. Men’s competitive nature never seems to inhibit the progress of other men though.

Also agree some criticism is guilt driven leading to some women trying to justify their life choices. Bit why are they feeling guilty in the first place. Is it because they feel they have to justify their life choices to fit in with societal norms.

Just seems that while women are busy tearing each other down men are still free to rule the world.

Seems to me women are just as competitive as men but we are only allowed to be competitive about our children, whereas men are allowed to be competitive in the wider world. This thing of women siding with the patriarchy is very obvious with the TRA Handmaidens. All the protesting they're doing in Australia, for example chanting 'blow jobs are real jobs' (according to Julie Bindle recently), feeds into 'sex work' being viewed as an ordinary, valid occupation. One of the most depressing things I've read recently is that women under 53 in Berlin who have been on benefits for over a year can be forced to take such 'work' or lose their benefits. I'd be suicidal if that were me. And some women have worked and are working to bring that about. Words fail me.

I aggree '...women police other women all the time.'

Re 'I don't really know why we do this...'

I think we are conditioned to do some of this, for protection (policing how women dress, speak, even how we sit- legs together) perhaps to ensure we are eligible for men, nice girls don't do xyz.

Behind all of this is I think something that keeps women in a decorative/sexual/maternal box. It is enforced snd policed by women but in the long run it does not benefit us. What could be behind it!!!

You often get this with groups who do not hold much power. They scrap around for the scraps that privileged white men throw our way. We see that there is little point trying to gain power over the most privileged group so we look towards our own group.

Much of it is self hatred as well - I am thinking of women who actively fight against other women and those who announce loud and proud that they have no female friends because girls are bitches! All to wild applause from men - men drive this too by saying things like women are their own worst enemy(really?? I think they will find it MEN who rape and murder us but that doesn't fit with their agenda of divide and conquer). They WANT women to be divided and a lot of women oblige to win male approval.

In my RL 99% of womwn I know are supportive and kind because I chose to associate myself with those sorts of women. But as more of outlives are spent online, especially young people it’s harder to escape the judging. It’s just the horrendous women’s magazines with the circle of shame on a much wider scale. I totally agree that girls are conditioned from a young age and this is where it needs to change. But is so bloody hard. I try with my 2 year old. Whilst talking to her about a tv show where the protagonist is a girl engineer she insisted that the boy sidekick was the one who had fixed the problem.

It's the brilliance of the patriarchy. Women are brought up to work against each other, while men are encouraged to work together. The classic example I always see is that a man wouldn't think twice about giving his rugby-mate's nephew's name to HR and asking if they can set him up with an interview for an internship. If the nephew turns out to be a plonker, man shrugs shoulders knowing he's done his bit. A woman wouldn't do this because she will feel (and will be treated as) responsible for said nephew's behaviour. You see it on here sometimes - women who got someone a job who have turned out to be less than fabulous employees find themselves in the embarrassing position of having to justify the hiring etc. It just doesn't happen with men.

Basically, we're programmed to take responsibility for everything. And the flip side of that is that there's an awful lot of judging and complaining, sometimes to justify our own decisions and sometimes in a weird attempt to place blame somewhere else or protect ourselves from the same judging.

What I struggle with is how do we change this? Lots of us are making a real effort to stop reinforcing gender stereotypes with our children, discouraging gendered toys, encouraging our girls to be interested in STEM while ensuring our sons know it's okay to experience and express emotions etc etc. But this sense of camaraderie and team spirit is something I can't work out what we can do to create.

and those who announce loud and proud that they have no female friends because girls are bitches!

Yes!

I honestly think girls are conditioned from an early age through 'girl' toys (think barbies etc) to judge each other on looks etc.

Yep. I also agree with the sentiment that when you are taught that these are the "rules" then the easiest way to feel some control within the "game" is to play by them, instead of re-structuring the system itself.

Divide and conquer?

It’s lack of power. When you have no power you can’t kick up, so you kick out, or down on the ladder.

And it suits men well.

I think there’s also a subconscious fear as well behind a lot of handmaiden type behaviour - that if you do the men’s work for them they will eat you last.

There is also a lot of internalised misogyny in liberal feminism imo. The idea that ‘women’s stuff’ is sad and boring comes from the outside, from the patriarchal viewpoint. Look at the difference between how things like baking vs chef work are regarded, or being a designer vs sewing for the home. Same skills, but one is seen as more Male and more high end.

Hold other women up, wherever you can.

we need to build our girls up from the start so they have the confidence to compete in the wider world and don’t need validation from men. I really think that a lot of the problem lies in women needing validation from men and it’s why we see groups of women facilitating the patriarchy.

But there needs to be change on a society level to enable our girls to be able to compete in the world and have the cinfidwnxe to do so. As mentioned my little girl was convinced that a male character was the one to “save the day” when in fact it was the female protagonist. This is despite me always building women up and not going down the gendered toy route and not letting her watch vacuous princess tv. But even at 2 years old she is picking up on the patriarchal society we live in. And how we change that anytime soon I do not know.