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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS told: give trans patients equal access to fertility service

157 replies

miri1985 · 05/08/2018 00:20

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/aug/04/nhs-trans-patients-equal-access-fertility-services

Anyone betting the EHRC don't take the same action to force the NHS to give women access to laser or electrolysis brought on by PCOS or menopause

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 05/08/2018 09:52

I'm not sure this is such a bad news story if it will mean infertility is properly discussed prior to puberty blockers being prescribed. It may mean fewer families take that step. It may lessen the pressure on parents to agree to their child going down this 'totally reversible' route.

I have also had this thought/hope.

I am also concerned that just as many young people who are transgender state confidently 'I will adopt' without much awareness of the reality of this process, they may also believe that in storing eggs, they will easily have children through IVF.

There does seem some tension with simultaneous lobbying (one presumes from the same sources) for both prompter medical treatment by way of blockers and cross-sex hormones and also fertility saving treatments for young people.

What is clear though is that of all of the patient-led lobby groups seeking parity or improved medical treatments, the transgender lobby stands head and shoulders above all others in terms of effectiveness.

Kyanite · 05/08/2018 09:52

This is preferential treatment.

RedToothBrush · 05/08/2018 10:02

I can not get IVF in my area.

Equal access to services therefore equals the sum total of fuck all.

I wish WOMEN could get equal fertility treatment.

ChattyLion · 05/08/2018 10:06

I am confused. What is the case for threats and special treatment of trans patients here?

The NHS is already refusing to fund basic IVF in many areas because of budget cuts/cost pressures not keeping pace with funding (or both at the same time). Ditto fertility preservation for adult people (including children) with cancer. This will add more demand so will create further disadvantage to them.

GMC (the regulator of doctors) guidance:

Trans healthcare

Trans and non-binary people experience the same health problems as everyone else and have very few differing needs. If a health problem’s unrelated to gender dysphoria or its treatment, trans patients should be referred to the same hospital or specialist services as everyone else.

www.gmc-uk.org/ethical-guidance/ethical-hub/trans-healthcare

I also think it is deeply unethical that children (anyone under age 18) should take any step -hormonal, medical or surgical- that would permanently compromise their future fertility for gender identity/dysphoria reasons. The NHS should not be stepping in to facilitate this with fertility preservation which is a very scarce resource already and is a real last resort because it can not guarantee a pregnancy or baby for anyone.

This professional guidance from RCN details the fertility preservation process:

www.rcn.org.uk/-/media/royal-college-of-nursing/documents/publications/2017/april/pub-005986.pdf

RedToothBrush · 05/08/2018 10:06

(not that I need IVF. but if I did, I couldn't on the NHS).

R0wantrees · 05/08/2018 10:07

I've c&p so capitals are from text.
Campaign launched last year by Becki McGuiness 'Cancer & Fertility UK':

"Thankfully I have now been in remission for 8 years but have to live with life long side effects. Early menopause is a hard one to deal with especially as the Gynecologist I had to see for HRT (Hormone Replacement Therapy) said they could have helped me, if only I had been originally sent to see her.

If only the hospital had a holistic approach for cancer patients.

I am officially launching a campaign for the awareness on #Cancer and #Fertility for all cancer patients called “The Vicious Cycle Campaign” and I’m also using the hashtag 💔 #HiddenHeartache 💔 because it’s something painful that’s hidden in society especially if you’re young and infertile. I want to raise awareness so women know the options available (as it takes longer to save women’s eggs and men usually get their fertility preserved, as it’s quicker) and asking to see a fertility specialist. I would prefer if all oncologists brought up the subject with every patient because for some patients it’s so traumatic finding out they have cancer that they might not even be thinking clearly enough or may forget to even ask about fertility and that’s why I believe they shouldn’t be putting this pressure on the patient to ask because they have so much to worry about already

This is something I am really passionate about. I know it can vary throughout the UK for different women and I want my campaign to make sure there’s equal opportunities for all women and men regardless who their doctor is or area they live in.

I want the protocol to be the same for everyone in the UK rather than being hit and miss for patients or a postcode lottery."

"A STUDY BY ST MARY’S HOSPITAL IN MANCHESTER SAYS AROUND HALF OF FEMALE CANCER PATIENTS AGED 15 TO 39 — ROUGHLY 4,000 A YEAR — ARE INFERTILE AFTER THEIR TREATMENT.
RESEARCHERS ESTIMATE THAT AROUND HALF WOULD VOLUNTARILY CHOOSE NOT TO USE FERTILITY PRESERVATION AND HALF WOULD WANT IT.

FREEZING EGGS, OVARIAN TISSUE OR AN EMBRYO CREATED WITH A PARTNER’S SPERM ACTS AS AN INSURANCE POLICY WHICH MAY GIVE THEM THE CHANCE TO START A FAMILY LATER USING IVF.
BUT IN 2014 ONLY 154 WOMEN HAD THEIR EGGS FROZEN — LESS THAN 4 PER CENT OF THE 4,000 WHO WERE LEFT INFERTILE.
AND A FURTHER SURVEY FOUND THAT ONLY A THIRD OF THE WOMEN WHO DID HAVE TREATMENT GOT IT ON THE NHS.
THE REST ARE LIKELY TO HAVE PAID THOUSANDS OF POUNDS PRIVATELY FOR THE CHANCE TO BE A MOTHER.
STUDY AUTHOR DR YAZAN ABDALLAH OF THE DEPARTMENT OF REPRODUCTIVE MEDICINE AT ST MARY’S SAID: ‘GETTING CANCER IS A MISFORTUNE, NOT A CHOICE, AND SO FERTILITY PRESERVATION MUST BE AVAILABLE ON THE NHS. THERE IS A BIG OPPORTUNITY TO INFORM AND EMPOWER WOMEN — NOT ASK THEM TO PAY... continues

THE RESEARCH, PRESENTED TO A BRITISH FERTILITY SOCIETY CONFERENCE IN EDINBURGH LAST WEEK AND DUE TO BE PUBLISHED IN THE JOURNAL HUMAN FERTILITY, SAYS THAT 77 PER CENT OF NHS FERTILITY CENTRES JUDGE CANCER PATIENTS ON THE STANDARD CRITERIA, DESPITE NICE’S GUIDANCE.
IT SAYS ANOTHER FACTOR IS THAT SOME PATIENTS OR THEIR DOCTORS MAY BE NERVOUS ABOUT DELAYING THE START OF CANCER TREATMENT UNTIL EGGS CAN BE HARVESTED. BUT THE AUTHORS SAY THIS CAN TAKE AS LITTLE AS 12 DAYS IF HORMONES ARE INJECTED TO STIMULATE OVULATION.
THE RESEARCH, WHICH HAS BEEN SUPPORTED BY CONSULTANT DR RAJ MATHUR, ALSO SHOWS A POSSIBLE POSTCODE LOTTERY FOR FUNDING, WITH LONDON AND THE NORTH-WEST OVER-REPRESENTED AMONG THE 154 WHO HAD TREATMENT.
DR CHERYL FITZGERALD, CONSULTANT IN REPRODUCTIVE MEDICINE AT ST MARY’S, SAID: ‘THERE IS A HUGE INEQUITY. MEN HAVING FERTILITY-DAMAGING TREATMENT ARE AUTOMATICALLY REFERRED TO SPERM BANKING.
‘FOR WOMEN, BECAUSE EGG FREEZING USED TO BE LESS SUCCESSFUL AND BECAUSE IT’S A MORE INVASIVE AND TIME-CONSUMING PROCESS, IT’S NOT AUTOMATIC.
‘THE EMPHASIS HAS OBVIOUSLY BEEN ON CURING CANCER, BUT WITH SO MANY PEOPLE SURVIVING CANCER, WE NEED TO LOOK AT IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE AFTER TREATMENT, INCLUDING THE CHANCE TO HAVE A FAMILY.’ ”

cancerandfertility.co.uk/about/

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 05/08/2018 10:18

Bowl mentioned on this, and I'm also really curious as to how most of them see this working out. It may be a stupid question but in which scenarios is this going to be a real possibility?

I know there have been so-called pregnant men, but as I understood it these people hadn't had surgery and had to lay off hormones (which in any case caused complications). So a FtM who had undergone a full transition would, presumably have to either find a surrogate or get a female partner to carry the child. Unless the female partner was infertile herself, why would they complicate matters and make success harder?

I suppose it's a bit more straightforward for transwomen with a female partner. But for others we're back at the surrogacy issue.

And aren't we supposed to believe that all this is triggering? How can they reconcile this?

Bowlofbabelfish · 05/08/2018 10:19

You can just see the universal credit sanction in ten years time can’t you? ‘Well you refused a perfectly good surrogacy job...’

R0wantrees · 05/08/2018 10:26

So to summarise, a transgender lobby group is threatening to sue the NHS for parity of fertility treatment options with cancer patients which does not actually offer parity for actual cancer patients!

Meanwhile the groups and inviduals who have been seeking parity of treatment for female cancer patients have little in the way of finance, access to decision makers or influential power and so few will have been aware of this issue. Certainly this sex bias and postcode-lottery has not been an issue to make national news.

ChattyLion · 05/08/2018 10:30

The Mail reported on children having fertility preservation last year, here picked up by Telegraph- it gives costs for storage: www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/01/nhs-clinics-freezing-sperm-eggs-teens-ahead-sex-change-surgery/

TerfsUp · 05/08/2018 10:34

Or are the so terrified of the TRA lobby that they'd rather sink the NHS first?

Yes. The TRA lobby must have its demands satisfied at all costs. The safety of women and children? Not important. The safety of vulnerable female prisoners? Not important. What is important is men's feelings and demands - these must be satisfied no matter what it costs.

R0wantrees · 05/08/2018 10:35

There have been some articles, they haven't generated the same level of traction though.

Daily Mail article January 2017:
www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4100344/4-female-cancer-patients-eggs-embryos-frozen-treatment.html

NHS told: give trans patients equal access to fertility service
LangCleg · 05/08/2018 10:48

You can just see the universal credit sanction in ten years time can’t you? ‘Well you refused a perfectly good surrogacy job...’

Yes. It's horrifying.

happydappy2 · 05/08/2018 10:58

But if children presenting with gender dysphoria were allowed to go through puberty & actually develop normally (brains maturing etc) 90% would be happy to stay living as the sex they are, ....hence a greatly reduced number of young adults could then have discussions about options for their future. The case for stopping puberty blockers has never been clearer imho.

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 05/08/2018 10:59

'Well you refused a perfectly good surrogacy job...’

That all rather ties in nicely doesn't it with the support for normalisation and legalisation of prostitution. It's been mentioned before, but if prostitution is just another job with unions and health and safety, then the logical endpoint is that women have no business turning such employment down. Sometimes I think that's all far fetched and then I read what some of them are genuinely arguing.

theOtherPamAyres · 05/08/2018 11:01

My Local NHS commissioning body (the people who decide who gets what and what they'll pay for) pledges not to discriminate on the grounds of gender. They got rid of 'sex' as a protected characteristic.

Logically, they will consider trans couples for treatment already.

What do you say NHS Commissioners?

BounceAndJump · 05/08/2018 11:03

When childless step parents struggling with infertility through no fault of their own can't even have treatment on the NHS how can they justify spending money on a choice made to remove fertility.

Bowlofbabelfish · 05/08/2018 11:10

Benefits cut for refusing sex work.

It’s already happened in Germany.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/1482371/If-you-dont-take-a-job-as-a-prostitute-we-can-stop-your-benefits.html

heresyandwitchcraft · 05/08/2018 11:15

To be clear, I also think certain trans activist's goals is to go beyond surrogacy. Here is a frank Twitter thread from the Trans Pregnancy Project which talks about uterine transplants for trans women. Would the NHS be obliged to offer these if the technology were made available?

twitter.com/transpregnancy/status/1009386366575226881

transpregnancy.leeds.ac.uk/

NHS told: give trans patients equal access to fertility service
NHS told: give trans patients equal access to fertility service
LineRunner · 05/08/2018 11:17

This will potentially have the benefit of shining an ethical spotlight on the radicalised medicalisation of teenagers' (probably normal and temporary) gender issues. One hopes.

ALittleBitofVitriol · 05/08/2018 11:19

Fucking frightening.

Children are not possessions that 'the government' is obliged to provide you with at any cost. I am deeply disturbed by the dehumanisation and disembodiment of women and children pedaled through the TRA agenda.

My sister didn't freeze eggs before starting chemo. Her cancer was fast growing, hormone receptive and there just wasn't time. Potentially sacrificing her fertility saved her life. She has no children.
I won't be a surrogate nor egg donor for her. I've thought seriously about it but I can't do it, it is too big a risk for my family - if I were even suitable.

TRAs. Grow the fuck up. The world is not here to prop up every one of your longings, no matter how intense or sincere.

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 05/08/2018 11:20

Bowl and Heresy
When I thought nothing else could shock me!
😯😯😯

OldCrone · 05/08/2018 11:24

From the Guardian article in the OP

The mother of a 14-year-old trans boy, who asked not to be identified, told the Observer: “Not all trans kids would want to choose it in the same way that not all non-trans children would want to go on and have their own children. But it isn’t realistic to expect a child to want to be able to have their own children, so it’s up to the parents to say ‘we need to preserve that option for them’ so that, when they get to an age when they do want to start thinking about it, at least then they have the choice.”

This parent is admitting that their child does not fully understand the consequences of their actions. And yet this parent has allowed their child to start down this route. Probably arguing that they 'know who they are' and that they do understand what they are doing.

NotBadConsidering · 05/08/2018 11:28

Gender identity is not a medical disorder> it needs urgent hormone treatment to treat it > of course children can consent to this > they can't fully understand the implications for their fertility though, so by "consent" we mean not fully informed consent > rather than wondering if and when they can consent to this we will decide for them that the best way forward is another medical procedure until they're old enough to understand > but it's not a medical disorder.

Bingpot · 05/08/2018 11:30

Is AGP classed as a medical disorder?