Single sex areas - petition

[Mxyzptlk]

Sex-segregated areas - a petition to keep them sex-segregated -

www.change.org/p/theresa-may-mp-keep-sex-segregated-areas-sex-segregated

Go on sarahah explain to me & all the other mothers of young girls why you think it's ok for them to see a penis in the changing room hmm

I don't think it is ok for mothers of young girls to see a penis in the changing room. I think it is entirely possible for transwomen who have a penis not to expose it - perhaps by using a cubicle.

I also think a transwomen who deliberately exposes her penis is likely to be causing the offence of exposure.

I don't think it is ok for mothers of young girls to see a penis in the changing room. I think it is entirely possible for transwomen who have a penis not to expose it - perhaps by using a cubicle.

I also think a transwomen who deliberately exposes her penis is likely to be causing the offence of exposure.

Really? Because I and all other women currently using the women's changing rooms are allowed to be naked. What rule would prevent a TW with a penis also being naked?

Glad to see the number of signatures on this petition is increasing.
Not sure how I came across it the other day but I was astonished to see it's been going for 2 years.
I think its text explains things very clearly.

(Theresa May might well be very busy at the moment but her government is running a consultation on this subject right now so she should take a little interest in it.)

What rule would prevent a TW with a penis also being naked?

Or a predatory male pretending to be a transwoman?

I also think a transwomen who deliberately exposes her penis is likely to be causing the offence of exposure.

The phrase 'her penis' is a misnomer.

Yes, of course someone deliberately exposing their penis in a room full of women and children is causing the offence of exposure.

However your point above is that women can have a penis, and it's therefore understandable that women are going to expose their bodies in a communal changing room and that isn't indecent exposure IF they're all women. You can't have it both ways.

If self ID was about discreet additional changing spaces for transwomen with penises then it would be less of an issue, but the issue here is that there will be naked people with penises in female changing spaces, and many females are not ok with that.

Just so that none of us are cherry picking bits of the EA ECHR regs to suit our argument, here's an excellent guide from FairPlay for women which explains all the relevant bits of the legislation

fairplayforwomen.com/equality-act-2010_womens-rights/

Also that women under self ID would be expected to be equally accepting of a self identified woman with a penis whether that person has lived all their lives with severe gender dysphoria and transitioned twenty years ago, or is someone who lives as a man six days a week but likes to cross dress on a Saturday and is delighted at being legally entitled to undress and dress in a room full of women. Both count equally under the Stonewall umbrella. Neither person would be expected to show ID, the whole point is no gatekeeping, so logically any bloke who walks into the women's facilities has self IDd just by doing so and has every right to be there.

Hmm certain angry men are ranting about this petition on twitter (so sad that they have nothing better to do than to monitor MN)

One point was raised though which made me ponder. If, as women we are fighting to keep biological males out of womens only spaces-does that in turn mean we have to accept all biological females into womens spaces? (even if they present as a bearded man.)

I know trans men tend to 'pass' more easily, men are not threatened by them, they pose no danger etc etc. but it would not be acceptable to me if trans men had to use the womens facilities. (They probably wouldn't want to.) Might we, by arguing for sex segregated spaces (for safety of women) end up having to accept trans men in our spaces by law?

Signed but chose the option of not displaying who I am.

The issue isn't people looking male, (gender identity), the issue is a penis (sex category). In women's prisons for example there is no question of transmen being transferred to the male estate no matter how male they look, because their safety could absolutely not be guaranteed.

This is where third spaces/gender neutral spaces come in. Transmen and transwomen should absolutely not have to change or be vulnerable to embarrassment or harassment in public spaces. Equally women should absolutely not have to change or be vulnerable to embarrassment, harassment, assault, rape and murder, by being forced to admit anyone with a penis into their spaces.

I am perfectly happy to have transmen in my space. I was on the train with one yesterday. He didn't look, smell or act like a man

Oh and importantly he didn't have a penis!

I'm fine with transmen in my changing rooms.

I’m not sure I’d feel ok about a trans man getting changed in a womens changing room as would be very confusing for kids-and how would we be sure they weren’t an effeminate man? This just gets more confusing....

happydappy - have you met any transmen? It's pretty obvious they're women, especially when they take their clothes off ...

One point was raised though which made me ponder. If, as women we are fighting to keep biological males out of womens only spaces-does that in turn mean we have to accept all biological females into womens spaces? (even if they present as a bearded man.)

Why? Most transmen want to be in male spaces, and most men are ok with transmen in male spaces (their insistence or silence about male transpeople in women's spaces would be insincere otherwise).

But I personally have no issue with any female in female spaces.

If, as women we are fighting to keep biological males out of womens only spaces-does that in turn mean we have to accept all biological females into womens spaces? (even if they present as a bearded man.)

If they present like that, but want to enter a female space, they surely wouldn't be too surprised to be asked for proof of being female.

The situation can't be completely clear cut, because of people who can pass as the opposite sex / gender stereotype.

SarahAr
I don't think it is ok for mothers of young girls to see a penis in the changing room. I think it is entirely possible for transwomen who have a penis not to expose it - perhaps by using a cubicle.
I also think a transwomen who deliberately exposes her penis is likely to be causing the offence of exposure

Open plan changing room (yes these do exist my 10 yr old daughter uses 2 different ones frequently), what is the difference between naked person with penis (sigh) drying themselves & naked person with penis exposing themselves?
And why should my daughter have to see either?

a transwomen who deliberately exposes her penis is a man. Women don't do that.

I also think a transwomen who deliberately exposes her penis is likely to be causing the offence of exposure

This would require women and children to be victims of indecent exposure. I don't know about anyone else but I would prefer safeguarding to prevent this in the first place.

The situation can't be completely clear cut

Well put.

The key reason being that self ID changes the situation.

Up until now there has been a polite system in place for decades that everyone was discreet and fine about it and those who had dysphoria and transitioned to the point of looking the opposite sex just quietly used the opposite sex provision. No problems. Particularly since the massive majority of transsexual people using women's facilities were in orientation gay male.

Then came transgenderism ideology and self ID which put forward the idea that no visible transition was necessary and some women have beards and penises, no gender dysphoria was necessary, that men who are autogynephilic and who enjoy cross dressing, and who make up much greater numbers than the transsexual population with GRCs and are straight men in orientation, were as valid to use women's facilities as a transsexual person with full reassignment surgery, and that men were women if they said they were. And women needed to know their place, and get on with enabling this. And self ID should be any bloke who feels like it walking into any woman's space unchallenged, since by the act of walking in he has self declared his choice of identity and it is unacceptable to expect him to go through any gatekeeping procedures.

At that point, many women stopped willing to be polite and to do this on a good will basis. People like Miranda Yardley who have been part of that transsexual population for years, have been pointing out from the start that genuinely dysphoric and transsexual people are going to suffer if women are forced to draw hard lines about who and who cannot be in their spaces.

Yes, tell me why my daughters, who are 13 and 11, should be forced into having someone with a penis in their swimming pool showers, ( or school changing rooms as has happened in the US ) ?
We have sex segregation for a reason. To protect women and girls from voyeurism , intimidation and abuse.

Absolutely no problem with tans men in spaces. They are after all biologically women.

Penis owners however are not acceptable in single sex places

Trans women without penises are still biologically men.

Or a predatory male pretending to be a transwoman?

Oh, that would never happen. All transwomen are sweet liddle lambs who are members of the most oppressed group in the history of the world.