Radio 4 today, 5pm, the conflict between TRAs and feminists

[Destinysdaughter]

Just saw this on Twitter, Kathleen Stock will be on it. Should be interesting!

Yeah. On the radio it's clear why the pronouns have to be outlined in advance.

Yes, I think a lot of people will wonder what someone with that voice was doing in the Jo Cox programme.

Well I missed the rest of that because my internet went off - usual BBC rubbish then.

Gender given at birth

I thought Katherine Stock came across well and I'd like to hear more from her.

The main problem with these little segments in news programmes is that they are simply not long enough to do justice to the nuances of the debate.

I think this one was slightly better than others I've heard though - I think Sophie Cook merrily announcing her participation in the Jo Cox programme as though it was entirely reasonable was a bit of an own goal, especially when quoting other people saying they were taking the place of a woman.

I would really like to see a quality in depth documentary about it.

Kathleen Stock was excellent - but it was a frustratingly short piece with so many important points not fully explained or left out.

Still, I suppose it allows the BBC to say they've given air time to gender critical feminists

Indeed. And she spoke so well. I wish they had given her some time, but her clear female voice was noticeably different from the others in that segment.

the trans people came across as rather batshit.

normal people really don't start a conversation by announcing their pronouns

because the obvious answer is 'who gives a fuck?'

Kathleen said on Twitter that she gave quite a long interview, shame it was such a short excerpt!

*the trans people came across as rather batshit.

normal people really don't start a conversation by announcing their pronouns

because the obvious answer is 'who gives a fuck?'*

This. All the way this.

In case anyone hasn't seen Kathleen Stock's talk at WPUK Brighton:

I think the trans people were probably asked by the interviewer to announce their pronouns.

I thought it was pretty poor. The trans people seemed to get away with claiming they had been abused, but there was no mention of the vicious verbal and physical abuse women have been subjected to. They said some ridiculous things that weren't challenged, e.g. one said that there were very few transwomen, so why all the fuss? The obvious riposte to that is: if there are so few of you, how come so many of you end up on the Jo Cox programme? There was no attempt either to clarify the fact that these days "trans" covers a large number of men who don't have gender dysphoria.

But it did sound just like a bunch of men talking, not women. So that was something, I guess.

I've just caught the last 10 minutes of a Radio 4 drama in which a 16 year old transwoman has a dispute with a gender critical bisexual woman. Very interesting to see both sides. I think the scriptwriter must have done a lot of research into the complex problems of ROGD

Anyone else hear it from the start?

theOtherPamAyres
Was it this?
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bch4g2#play

I heard it this morning at the end of Woman's Hour. There are two more episodes tomorrow and Friday.

Aww, thank you. And it's on the iplayer too. great.

There is currently another show on R4 now about a natal male who has changed gender 3 times.

I just heard that but found it frustrating that it will work to reinforce the public perception that "transgender" necessarily means that the person has had or will have sex reassignment surgery. There is a debate to be had where the public is aware that most transgender people have no intention to have the surgery and won't have it (unless they're in somewhere like Iran).

I had that experience, seeing several well-known transwomen in the flesh for the first time and hearing them speak, having previously known them only through their words on the screen. The overwhelming aura of maleness from them really caught me off-guard - their body language, their confident booming voices, their confidence. It's difficult to reconcile.

theOtherPamAyres & OldCrone
The series was heavily influenced by Susie Green and Mermaids, who the writer shadowed for a day. He sings her praises on twitter.