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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Germaine Greer

25 replies

ProperLavs · 28/07/2018 16:03

I am 50 and feeling a bit lost and a bit shit about my age and being female and what is mean to be female at my age as far as society is concerned. In my head I am still 17.
I am reading GG 'the whole woman' I have never read GG before and am finding it a revelation. It is helping me to understand a lot about why I feel so lacking not up to standard as a female.
Just wanted to share. I don't usually post on these boards, but am feeling more and more like I want to.

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theOtherPamAyres · 28/07/2018 16:14

Greer was 'uninvited' from a literary festival this week (July) by the virtue-signalling and saintly organisers. The story went global after Greer's response:

“The Brisbane writers’ festival is very hard work. So, to be uninvited to what is possibly the dreariest literary festival in the world, with zero hospitality and no fun at all, is a great relief.”

The pompous organisers expected kudos but they got a custard pie in the face instead. Go, GG, go, go, go.

AncientLights · 28/07/2018 16:15

Well, I'm glad you have posted! I am over 60 and decided some years back, based on stuff like one grandmother dying at 40 and the other looking older as a 20 year old bride than I did at 50, that if you have to be a 50+ woman then there has never been a better time to be it. Most of us, unlike both my grandmothers, have had control of our fertility so aren't exhausted by childbearing, we may have to persuade medics to take our health concerns seriously but it is doable, we can work (hopefully) and there are many educational opportunities out there. We don't expect to become the rotund matriarch in the floral pinny, scrubbing the front step. Sadly, popular culture hasn't kept step - try Googling 'grandmothers' or similar and you'll get lots of ancient ladies in rocking chairs! We need to educate them.

AncientLights · 28/07/2018 16:16

OH! I love GG's response to that!

ProperLavs · 28/07/2018 16:22

I think GG is ace. I saw the recent documentary on her and was hooked.
ancient I can be very logical about how grateful I am to still be alive, not to be my grandmother etc, but there is a big hole there. I am working towards finding what it means to be female beyond the big tits- which I don't have anyway and the pert teen body. I am hoping this will lead to an acceptance of me, finally.

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terryleather · 28/07/2018 16:24

I've just turned 50 Proper and speaking for myself, middle age and full on menopause have brought into much sharper focus a lot of things regarding being female and how we're treated.

I read The Whole Woman in my twenties and loved it but I'd be interested to revisit it now I'm older.

In some ways I like the invisibility that comes with middle age, it's been a revelation to be able to walk about free of cat calling & harassment.

I remember how intimidated I felt when I first posted on FWR and I think I lurked for nearly two years before I got up the nerve to do it but I'm so glad I finally took the plunge cause the water's lovely!

TerfsUp · 28/07/2018 16:31

“The Brisbane writers’ festival is very hard work. So, to be uninvited to what is possibly the dreariest literary festival in the world, with zero hospitality and no fun at all, is a great relief.”

Good for GG. I like her style.

weaselwords · 28/07/2018 16:34

I read “The Female Eunuch” aged 20 and have loved her ever since. I don’t always agree with her, but hate that she’s being silenced. I’m still listening.

AncientLights · 28/07/2018 16:35

I get your point, Proper, and it seems to me that I have throughout life just about got to grips with whatever my body is but then it goes and changes again (could this be the 'constantly shifting constellation' BS that S Faye wrote about?!) The child body became the pubescent body, which became the adolescent body, the young woman body, the maternal body, the peri-menopausal one, the post-menopausal one ...

You mean the acceptance of you by you? Or others? I probably don't particularly accept this current body as I do like to keep it covered. I do like the invisibility of my age, which I find liberating. I have travelled quite a bit since my mid 50s and it's been a really good time to do that. I'm nobody's idea of a threat, sexual or otherwise, so have felt quite safe roaming around and people have been very kind to me. Well, most of the time anyway.

ProperLavs · 28/07/2018 16:46

thanks ancient I mean acceptance of me by me. I have kept myself in good nick. I am slim and toned. I also have no chest and no shape!
When I was younger I felt very sure of my sexuality and attractiveness- I was young and noticed.
reading Greer is helping me to understand that women ( and me) value themselves through external beauty. She talks about things I wouldn't have given a second thought to.I am currently on the chapter about breasts, which since I don't have ones that are obvious, is of particular interest.

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R0wantrees · 28/07/2018 16:52

Germaine Greer lecture based on the 'Whole Woman'
I found so much of it inspiring and am very grateful it was shared on here!

www.youtube.com/watch?sns=fb&v=sVzYi4bRNwQ&app=desktop

DJLippy · 29/07/2018 00:16

Cool Germaine Greer thread here with some good links to videos ect...
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3244160-Germaine-Greer-Fan-Club

ProperLavs · 29/07/2018 09:47

Thank you for the link. I will join. I watched the clip, it's fab and very thought provoking.

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DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 29/07/2018 10:29

This is worth reading. It is specifically about writers, but his wider point about the loss of spaces to discuss difficult or controversial ideas is very pertinent.

www.theguardian.com/culture/2018/jul/29/i-didnt-want-to-write-this-but-the-courage-to-listen-to-different-ideas-is-vanishing?CMP=soc_567

R0wantrees · 29/07/2018 11:23

There was an article by David Aaronowitch in The Times last month which raised this:

'Assaults on free speech are led by the left: The growing tendency of lobby groups to shut down debates they disagree with affects everyone, whatever their politics'

(extract)
"Let’s start small and then go big. This week the writer Lionel Shriver was turfed off the judging panel of a women’s short-story competition. The reason for her ejection was that she had written something disobliging for The Spectator magazine about a major publisher’s diversity strategy. Shriver is a vivid writer and her views were expressed vividly. Her arguments were a variation on the usual concerns that many people have about the practical application of positive discrimination.

To the organisers of the prize, Mslexia magazine, the expression of this opinion amounted to what we used to call “gross moral turpitude” — sufficient grounds in itself for termination. Mslexia tweeted that “Although we welcome open debate, Shriver’s comments are not consistent with Mslexia’s ethos”. Face palm, as the youngsters say. To paraphrase Orwell, open debate means being able to say stuff inconsistent with ethoses. Or it is not open debate.

Shriver’s a survivor and she can probably do without any more judging (or being judged). But Mslexia’s formulation gave perfect shape to the problem that I’d been thinking about in these past few months as chairman of Index on Censorship, the free speech advocacy organisation. Why is it that some of the people who should be most protective of free speech and actual open debate are now almost hostile to it in practice?

So I’ll take a much less amusing example. Last year the government promised changes to the Gender Recognition Act (GRA) which
would, among other things, give legal status to the gender choice of an individual, rather than to the biological sex that they were born with, without the need for lengthy psychiatric assessment.

Needless to say, such a change would be welcome for many trans people, who would no longer have to prove that they suffered from a nebulous condition dubbed “gender dysphoria”. But you don’t have to be a tabloid leader writer to see that there are some big problems to be dealt with here, some practical, some anthropological, some philosophical. “What,” my sportiest daughter asked, “about women’s sports?” People born biologically male are physically bigger, stronger and faster than biological women. So what about places designed to protect women from the possible consequences of that physical difference? Do we really want to say that we will not see the difference in experience between, crudely, someone with a womb and someone with a willy?
Maybe you do. Maybe I agree. But wouldn’t you also say that if ever there was a case for an “open debate” this was it? You can’t just make a change like this without arguing it through and hearing the other side. Yet that seems to be exactly what many people, largely on the left, want to do.

In my salad days feminists were some of the most admirable people I knew. The cause of women’s equality was not even a quarter won with the suffragettes and it is far from won even now. In the 1970s and 1980s these women were mocked as bra-burners, women’s-libbers, dungaree-wearing dykes and nagging termagants. Now some of these very same people are being ejected Shriver-style from the debate on the GRA for having views inconsistent with the ethos of the New Left." (continues)

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/assaults-on-free-speech-are-led-by-the-left-l2r8t9t9p

threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3277408-David-Aaronovitch-comment-in-Times

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3277496-lionel-shriver-groups-of-women

Floisme · 29/07/2018 11:30

I adore Germaine Greer even if she does talk some shit sometimes.

ProperLavs · 29/07/2018 11:44

I don’t always agree with everything she says, but she challenges my thinking. When I fidgeted with something she says I am forced to examine why I disagree and as a consequence examine my own views and where they have come from. Most importantly is having someone like her who will challenge. I think we have lost that. We have to be so careful, so pc that most (apart from the aggressive left) have learnt to keep quiet. I am worried about who there will be to take the baton from women like her.

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Floisme · 29/07/2018 11:59

it's the way she really doesn't seem to care what people think. That's such a rare quality. I've no idea who will pick up the baton. Probably Paris Lees the way things are going.

Not seen you on Style and Beauty recently Proper? I still remember your thread last year about invisibility.

ProperLavs · 29/07/2018 12:29

Ah yes Flo- I was told to get a grip basically!
I am wrestling with S&B because I haven't got disposable income to spend on all the expensive stuff that people talk about and it depresses me!
I am also wrestling with the need to try and improve myself when I feel I should be good enough as I am. I'm basically wrestling with a lot of stuff!! GG is making it worse in some ways but easier in others.

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Floisme · 29/07/2018 12:35

Yeh I can understand that. Miss you on the French thread though - I've been flitting between the two boards and we're looking at some fab shopping pics and harrumphing about young people Smile

Floisme · 29/07/2018 12:36

And before anyone tells me off for lowering the tone - Germaine Greer loves clothes too.

AntiqueOlive · 29/07/2018 12:44

it's the way she really doesn't seem to care what people think

This.

She just doesn't give two fucks what people say about her .Its like water off a duck's back.

She will be irreplaceable.

ProperLavs · 29/07/2018 13:09

Flo- if GG loves clothes then I feel better! I do follow the French thread but so much discussed is beyond anything I can hope to have. I will dip back in though thank you x

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DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 29/07/2018 13:32

ProperLavs, op shops are your friend. :-) I think people forget that GG is not only a feminist scholar, she is also an art historian and a Shakespeare expert. She is very theatrical in presentation.

I think I've told the story here relayed to me by a woman who went to University with her. Apparently Germs used to sweep into lectures wearing a long cloak and followed by adoring young men.

This picture is from her recently donated archives.
theconversation.com/friday-essay-how-shakespeare-helped-shape-germaine-greers-feminist-masterpiece-59880

Germaine Greer
Floisme · 29/07/2018 13:40

I heard Germaine Greer speak about 20 years ago and I remember her excoriating the high street for the joyless crap they try and fob off on middle aged women. I was still on the cusp of middle age at the time so didn't fully appreciate it - now I wish I'd written down every word.

ProperLavs · 29/07/2018 14:56

Flo- you lucky thing. I bet she was wonderful!

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