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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The thread about Penny Mordaunt comments

47 replies

CuriousaboutSamphire · 28/07/2018 12:51

I wrote an email complaining the her statement theta the debate starts with "Transwomen are women" was not an open one and have had a reply... I am still pondering some of the less than clear areas!

I am writing on behalf of the Minister for Women and Equalities to thank you for your email of 3 July regarding the Government’s consultation on reforming the Gender Recognition Act (GRA) 2004. May I first apologise for the delay in responding to you.

Ministers are always grateful when people take the time and trouble to write on important issues such as those detailed in your email.

In your email, you commented on the statement made by the Minister in a recent interview, that trans women are women. Having witnessed the unhelpful and potentially damaging tone of the recent debate surrounding trans issues, the Minister felt it was important to emphasise publicly that people should be respected in the gender with which they identify and live in. The Minister believes that respecting the right of others to make choices about their own identities is an important part of living harmoniously together in a diverse society. Indeed, it is a right that is protected under Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights, and it is the basis upon which the system for gender recognition was originally established back in 2004.

With regard to the GRA consultation, the Government wishes to emphasise that this is an open consultation – we are not putting forward any specific proposals for how we want the system to change, beyond saying that we want to make the application process less bureaucratic and intrusive for trans people. Only after we have gathered all the evidence and listened to all the views expressed during the consultation process will we make a decision on what the new gender recognition system will look like.

The Government wishes to make clear that this consultation is in no way a fait accompli – it is a genuinely open process, during which we want to hear the views and concerns of all interested parties, and no decision has yet been taken about the future of the GRA. We know that many have expressed concerns about the potential wider impact of any changes to the GRA; during the consultation process, the Government wishes to ensure that it deals appropriately with all the concerns that have been raised, from all sides of the debate.

From our extensive pre-consultation engagement work, we know that there are many people who have concerns about the potential knock-on effects of any changes to the GRA on the rights of women. We have heard, in particular, about the potential impacts on the right to operate women’s-only spaces such as domestic violence refuges. We understand this point of view and we know that many of those who express it are doing so from a place of sincere concern for the safety of vulnerable women. Indeed, we absolutely agree that maintaining access to single-sex spaces in some circumstances is important and helps to keep vulnerable women in particular safe.

That is why we have consistently made it clear that the Equality Act 2010, and its exceptions for single- and separate-sex services, will not change as a result of this consultation. The Equality Act allows service providers to provide single- or separate-sex services for women and men, or provide services differently to women and men, in certain circumstances. An example of such a circumstance may be the restriction of access to a domestic violence refuge to women only. A provider of such services is expected to treat transgender people according to the gender role in which they present. However, the Act permits the service provider, in certain circumstances, to provide a different service or exclude a person who they think has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment from the service, whether or not that person has a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC). This means that the current exceptions will continue to operate in the same way as before following any changes to the process of applying for a GRC. Trans women may therefore, in certain circumstances, still be prevented from accessing single-sex spaces under the Equality Act. However, this can only be determined on a case-by-case basis – service providers who make use of the exceptions must be able to convincingly demonstrate that doing so is a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim. It is up to service providers to interpret the law depending on the individual circumstances of the case.

We think that this approach, which has been in operation since 2010, strikes the right balance between upholding the rights of trans people, ensuring that the availability of women-only spaces is maintained, and entrusting the people on the front-line – the service providers – to take decisions about what is right for their service users.

The Government is actively considering the impact on the wider population of any changes to the GRA, and our consultation provides an opportunity for people to share their thoughts on such issues. In all our work on this issue, we are mindful of everyone’s concerns and we are seeking to find the most judicious balance of the various different rights that are in play here. However, we also remain convinced of the need to act in order to address the stigma and discrimination that trans people face in society on account of their transgender status. In pursuit of this goal, we will not undermine the hard-won rights of women but, equally, we are not prepared to take any course of action that risks marginalising further another historically marginalised group

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VickyEadie · 28/07/2018 13:05

That's interesting. I was considering writing to her on this very issue and her reply to you demonstrates clearly that she not only conflates gender with sex, but also does not in the least understand the word 'transwomen' and what it means now.

I shall think more carefully about how to word my letter.

Wanderabout · 28/07/2018 13:07

Thank you for posting this. It is quite astonishing on a number of levels and I do wonder who drafted it or advised her on it.

Would you mind posting the wording of what you asked? It would be really helpful to understand the context to her reply.

UpstartCrow · 28/07/2018 13:07

Oh ffs. The Equality Act leaves the door wide open for trans people to sue any single sex service provider, so they really haven't grasped the problem.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 28/07/2018 13:11

Sorry Wander, I did post that onthe other thread, I should have done it here, just a mo...

Good morning,

I have been reading, with some interest, the opening of the GRA consultation. I am somewhat surprised, and disappointed, that you lead off with a statement that makes much of what will come after something of a mockery.

As you are probably fully aware there has been much ado about "transphobia" in many women's groups. Gender Critical feminists have been accused of 'literal violence' for wanting to openly discuss the possible conflicts changes to the GRA might mean.

Your statement "Transwomen are women, that is the starting point of this debate" is hugely problematical:

a) This is factually incorrect. Biology cannot be denied, sex is sex. Gender may well be a continuum of choice, but sex is either male or female. So how can genetic males be genetically female?

This is one of the fictions that leads to some extremely problematic scenarios, ones that have already happened across the world. For example, men in a women's refuge. I am sure you are fully aware of, say, that long running Canadian case!

b) If that is the starting point then all that follows is useless. Predetermined whitewashing of an issue that effects EVERY woman. You are saying that anyone who starts from a different viewpoint, that transwomen are men, are not going to be listened to. Sadly, that means a great many women will be blocked from any participation as will many transwomen, who make no claims to being women!

c) What about transmen? Where are they in your New World Theory? Why are you so focussed on what men want to the extent of ignoring women, no matter how they present themselves?

Please, before you carry on down this exclusionary path, think about the people who you have been consulting with. Think on these questions:

  • What sex are they?
  • How loud are their voices?
  • How determined have they been to be heard?
  • Why are they so determined to prevent any discussion about sex, biological sex?
  • Why have some of them committed very real physical violence as well as many acts of threatening communication on many online platforms?
  • Why are those very real acts of aggression being ignored and women being threatened with prosecution, losing their jobs, etc, for 'literal violence' AKA saying that transwomen are men?
  • Why didn't you say equally firmly Transmen are men?

And finally, Penny... How do human beings change sex?

I really hope you will read all that I have written and give it some real consideration. Though I suspect you will read a line or two and dismiss me as a crank, a TERF, a transphobic woman. But remember, what you do now will set the shape of our social milieu for some time.

Do you want to be the woman who chose to dismiss women's concerns for the rights and safety of women and girls in order to placate a loud and aggressive group of men with issues of their own?

Don't throw women under the bus, Penny.

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BirthCanal · 28/07/2018 13:13

Why should we have to prove things on a case by case basis?

The GRA needs trimming not expanding.

Floisme · 28/07/2018 13:18

Good on your for emailing.

If I was going to reply to that I would probably say, 'I agree with the Minister 100% that people should be respected in the gender with which they identify and live in. But could the Minister please explain what this has to do with whether human beings can change sex?'

VickyEadie · 28/07/2018 13:18

I keep hearing this "the Equality Act 2010, and its exceptions for single- and separate-sex services, will not change as a result of this consultation."

Either the people saying it know perfectly well it will be effectively rendered meaningless if the proposed self-id changes come in, or they're not listening, or too naive to think it through.

I wonder if sending the likes of Penny Mordaunt some photos of the transwomen who look entirely like men (the ones with threatening tattoos, beards, etc), together with the threatening quotations ("suck my lady dick", etc), might help them see?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 28/07/2018 13:21

I am pondering a reply. I was hoping to garner some ideas here.

So thanks, I'll use that, Flo Smile

Vicky I am trying not to do the ovious, I am working on questioning rather than trying to 'prove' anything. Probably the ex teacher in me Smile

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Datun · 28/07/2018 13:22

I agree that she is not acknowledging that transwomen now means any man. But specifically cross dressing fetishists, as well as men with gender dysphoria.

BiologyIsReal · 28/07/2018 13:22

TRAs (though not all trans women) insist they belong in the sex class called "women". So the glaring black hole, from which no logic will escape, is that once you accept that people can identify in the class they feel they belong you can no longer provide single sex spaces.

Trans women who believe they are women will insist they are women and may not be excluded from single sex facilities. How then, does any organisation - DV refuges, Girl Guides etc. refuse to accept a person who says they are a woman if the law says they are a woman and should be treated in the way they identify themselves?

The only people to profit from this will be the lawyers when trans women start to sue for exclusion. The people who will suffer most from this will be women.

It's madness.

Datun · 28/07/2018 13:25

It's so frustrating CuriousaboutSamphire.

She absolutely needs to acknowledge what the definition of transwoman IS.

It's one thing thinking that exploitation of the law would be obvious and could be dealt with.

But it's quite another having to acknowledge that part of your legitimate cohort are cross dressing fetishists.

Wanderabout · 28/07/2018 13:28

Thanks curious.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 28/07/2018 13:30

OK... more questions to ask there... I'll keep track will send a reply next week!

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LetThemGetBeatenUp · 28/07/2018 13:31

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Popchyk · 28/07/2018 13:43

That response made me even more worried than the "transwomen are women" thing.

"Having witnessed the unhelpful and potentially damaging tone of the recent debate surrounding trans issues, the Minister felt it was important to emphasise publicly that people should be respected in the gender with which they identify and live in".

The reality of respecting gender identity forces the majority of women to share spaces with men. And women don't get a say in it.

If men are allowed to self-identify as women and become "female" then single-sex female wards will be open to these men. Because they say that they are women. And therefore female and therefore it is single sex.

The exemptions in the EA (which are already very few) would be swept away completely.

If the BBC's survey (which found that 2% of their staff identify as transgender) is correct in terms of numbers, then that makes 1.3 million transgender people in the UK. Not a tiny minority.

Datun · 28/07/2018 13:56

Not a tiny minority.

Except we pretty much know that the people for whom the law was written are still a tiny minority. So who are the rest?

This is the question that needs an answer.

We have to get past this notion that transgenderism is the same as homosexuality.

It's not. It's not a diversity issue, it's a medical one.

Lack of hormones and medical gatekeeping buys in to the medical condition concept. But that gets swapped immediately, to the gay rights concept when it comes to authentic selves, coming out, celebrating diversity, etc.

We don't give a whole raft of extra special civil rights to people with schizophrenia and claim that they are exploring their identity on the basis of their condition.

Popchyk · 28/07/2018 14:05

OP, which email address did you use for your initial email?

I will also email my thoughts to them.

R0wantrees · 28/07/2018 14:07

recent discussions with may concerns collated:

Comments for the Minister of Women & Equalities:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3297184-Your-comments-for-Penny-Mordaunt

Comments for Justine Roberts and Penny Mordant:
[[www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/3297067-Mumsnet-
moderation-response-to-yesterdays-feedback]]

Additionally,
important thread with comments about failings / failures in the systemic frameworks intended to enable child protection and safeguarding of vulnerable adults:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3301266-Safeguarding-girls-and-protecting-women-post-Jimmy-Saville-metoo

CuriousaboutSamphire · 28/07/2018 14:18

Thanks.

Email address was [email protected]

They will ask if you are a consituent. I told them no, I was a woman wishing to communicate my concerns to the Minister for Women and Equalities.

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Popchyk · 28/07/2018 14:19

Thanks, Curious.

I will do that.

Ereshkigal · 28/07/2018 14:24

"Having witnessed the unhelpful and potentially damaging tone of the recent debate surrounding trans issues, the Minister felt it was important to emphasise publicly that people should be respected in the gender with which they identify and live in".

The violence and abuse and harassment is all from transactivists. Why can't our beliefs be publicly respected too?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 28/07/2018 14:30

Yeah! I already have a snippy sentence asking, again, why the tone of a conversation is so much more hurtful than a fist or specific threats via twitter etc.

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Popchyk · 28/07/2018 14:31

We don't matter Erishkgal.

Men should not be forced to share their spaces with men.

Therefore the best thing to do is to force women to share their spaces with men. Women's thoughts on this are irrelevant.

And that is the starting point of the consultation.

Bowlofbabelfish · 28/07/2018 20:30

I would ask about the conflicts set up if self ID is brought in and the EA is retained.

If self ID is brought in, and everything has to be done on a case by case basis, this shifts the focus to individual service providers. We have already seen how much they can be harassed by TRA activists- no company will want to do anything other than toe the TRA line.

I’d ask how she can reconcile the fact that for a long time we have had single sex spaces that are deemed neccessary and proportionate simply because men are a danger as a class and now we must justify case by case. That’s a significant shift in thought. Why?

I ask her if she believes humans can change sex, and make it very clear this is not to be answered by waffle about gender feelings.

There’s about a thousand other things but it’s basically a done deal isn’t it? They will introduce self ID, say the EA isn’t changing and then quietly change sexual to gender at some point.

Popchyk · 28/07/2018 20:48

Our public institutions will already be gender-identification inclusive though. NHS, schools, BBC, prisons. They already are, let's be honest. The only ones that won't are the religious institutions where the men's top jobs must be preserved and therefore their roles will remain single-sex.

The only providers offering single-sex services will be private ones. So single-sex private schools, single-sex private gyms and clubs and single-sex provision guaranteed for private hospitals.

I'd expect a lot of women to take up private healthcare if they could be assured of single-sex provision and the guarantee of a female HCP for certain procedures.

Much money to be made by the Tories there.

And if you have no money to send your daughter to a school where she doesn't have to get changed in front of males, then too bad love.