Female body as a commodity/product

[BaconandWaffles]

I'm not quite sure how to phrase this. I've always said I was a feminist but in the last year or so I've thought back over my twenties and realised actually the life I lived was not happy or liberated at all, even though I thought it was. It's brutal to think about it but I essentially acted like, and was treated as, a decorative toy for men.
I feel like I'm so stunted in basic ways - my entire sexuality has been based on pleasing men to the extent that all I cared about was how men reacted to me, not how I felt myself. I don't even know what I like myself because every experience I've had has been based on a man's preference! I feel like third wave feminism's focus on sex positivity actually really fucked me up - I thought I was being free and fun but actually on reflection I didnt enjoy most of the encounters I had, and I'm pretty sure this is a problem for many women of my generation. I guess what I'm asking is how can we reframe our views of sex and relationships in a healthier way? Despite the fact that I know better there's a huge part of me that still sees my body as a commodity, whose principal purpose is to please men. I know many other women in their twenties who feel the same; even though we know it's wrong, it's so ingrained in us. Does anyone have advice on how to wipe out this toxic mindset?

well, you have noticed it, that's a good start

It's very difficult to stop old habits. Its much more effective to learn to recognise them, and to replace them with new habits.

1. Learn how to please yourself - not just in the bedroom. What do you like wearing, eating, doing, listening to, reading. Pay attention to how you feel and what you think.

2. Take assertiveness training.
   www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/0704334208/ref=tmm_pap_used_olp_sr?condition=used&tag=mumsnetforum-21&ie=UTF8&qid=1532722564&sr=8-2

3. Learn to spot predatory and coercive behaviours in men. Don't interact with them.
   the-eye.eu/public/Books/Radical%20Feminist%20Literature/Gavin%20de%20Becker/The%20Gift%20of%20Fear%20%28123%29/The%20Gift%20of%20Fear%20-%20Gavin%20de%20Becker.pdf

No, you're not alone. I remember this phase all too well from my twenties - the man-pleasing, lib fem, don't frighten the horses phase.

Upstart's list is good. I particularly like (1). And to Upstart's version, I'd add: listen very carefully to what a man says about your interests, whether in politics, music, literature, film, hobbies. Is he dismissive of them? Patronising about them? Does he argue with you about your political points, not out of a passionately held difference of opinion, but because he loves the sound of his own voice and he has to be right, and force you to admit that he's right. I've been on the receiving end of that.

Also - sit down and think hard about your sexual responses. Have you internalised any of the shit about "women's sexuality is inherently submissive"? (Or perhaps that should be "to what extent have you internalised..." because that stuff is fucking ubiquitous and pretty much impossible to escape being conditioned by). Is it something you do with another person, or is it something you perform with an imaginary audience, or is it something you allow others to do to you? Do you find yourself agreeing to things because they're expected of you rather than because you like them?

You are not alone Bacon (although thankfully I was old enough to know better when the "third wave" nonsense came along, so was not sucked in by it). But before the "third wave" was 'compulsory heterosexuality', which functioned much the same, except more 'non-sexy times'.

A huge part of the reason males are 'attracted' to younger females, is that younger females are easier to fool. This is why old women are ridiculed and silenced - we speak the truth of decades of experience.

My suggestion would be an extended period of separatism as much as possible. It will clarify your thinking, and following Upstart's suggestions (focus on the self). At the end of all that, you will hopefully be rid of most of the patriarchy-inspired nonsense, but recognise that it is fairly much a life-long process. The separatism part helps to speed it up.

80% of the challenge ton changing behaviour is recognising it so you're well on the way- congrats

Second have compassion for oneself - it's a process to gain autonomy from all the male is best conditioning we are subjected to. It sounds like you are one of those raised on social media so as much distance from that as possible is necessary to see its abuse as a strong-arm of the male law.

Next do the Freedom Program and start to read about coercion by men - I found understanding the patterns of male abuse, and how they groom and target women in many contexts, really essential to gaining autonomy. Read about cults and totalitarian regimes and see the parallels and warning signs

Great to have your company in our collective journey

I mean this in the most honest , non judgmental way...

I have found that the Islamic/old version Christianity encouragement of covering ones beauty to be the most empowering feminist thing in my teenage years and twenties. It shapes my identity. Made me feel like I’m worth more than my looks .

I used to feel noticed for my looks and that obscured my perception of myself, and so I increased my covering, removed my make up, became stricter... and ultimately felt closer to god as I felt I was attaching my self worth to him and hit to men’s opinions .

That is why... I find it laughable when feminists treat hijabis as oppressed .

This isn’t about convincing you to wear the headscarf, but I felt I would hijack this moment to explain the angle which we come from.

I almost certainly feel teenagers and young ladies have very little self worth and it is all attached to their looks...

I feel empowered that my husband married me, after meeting me and hanging around with me and finding out my personality ... yet never saw my body until he fully accceptes me as a person.

I feel no insecurity knowing I might grow wrinkly and old... saggy and floppy one day ..

Because that’s now the ultimate reason why he married me .. and my hijab is my reminder

I honestly ... utterly... feel misunderstood.

Sorry I know that’s not what you want to hear

Second have compassion for oneself - it's a process to gain autonomy from all the male is best conditioning we are subjected to.

So true. It’s so hard to reject that conditioning of seeing yourself through the male gaze. And the fact that you’ve recognised it after being so long in it is wonderful.

One of the interesting things for me is to study where lib fem went wrong, how feminism collided with the forces of capitalism, a backlash against feminism and the explosion of the media and came out with this harmless “choice” based feminism that was neutralised, harmless and hardly a choice at all.

Some books which helped me are: Ariel Levy, “Female chauvinist pigs” and Susan Douglas “The rise of enlightened sexism”. Based on American culture and quite old but still very relevant.

Oh and Mumsnet. Keeps me sane. And even the non feminist areas of Mumsnet are relatively feminist-minded.

That is why... I find it laughable when feminists treat hijabis as oppressed .

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the Feminist position in opposition to mandatory clothing requirements on penalty of imprisonment.

Your choice of empowerment, the illusion of the thing, instead of power, the thing itself, is your personal choice to make.
Feminism is a political movement that concerns itself with the liberation of all women, regardless of what they are wearing.

These questions always remind me of the Rebecca West quote: "People call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat or a prostitute."

Noticing it is great (but quite frustrating and anger inducing!).

I found using my body for things that made me happy and strong helped. Used to be martial arts, now running. Shit where I feel my body being strong and getting stronger and just for me.

I almost certainly feel teenagers and young ladies have very little self worth and it is all attached to their looks

That is true. But covering yourself is just the flip side of the same coin.

Women’s bodies are neither to be put on display nor to be hidden away like some precious jewels.

Women’s bodies just are.

What you are doing is reacting to the male gaze as much as the women of which you speak.

Radical feminism is about going to the root of the problem: in this case the cultural importance given to the male gaze and tearing that shit down.

I almost certainly feel teenagers and young ladies have very little self worth and it is all attached to their looks

Bit of a sweeping generalisation there.

ILoveHumanity on the flip side of your explanation, women who show their bodies are made to feel that they are only worth their looks. If you believe this then you are part of the problem.

We need to be able to separate sexual attraction from other traits. I have been wearing some very skimpy clothing in this heat and I have no desire to cover up. I should still be taken seriously as a human being, regardless of who is attracted to me (or not).

I really agree with the Idea of getting into some sort of physical activity, be it sport, dancing, singing, playing a musical instrument, which makes you see and relate to your body as part of you which does stuff that is worthwhile and pleasurable for you, rather than as a thing to be looked at and to bring pleasure to others.

Also I can really recommend Susan Faludi's book Backlash - an absolute classic, thought provoking and a page turner.

Thank you all for your replies, I really appreciate them. I like the idea of finding a physical activity to help recognise my body as something strong/useful rather than just something decorative.

Upstart - thank you for the link to The Gift of Fear. I have a long train journey tomorrow which will be a great time to start it I've certainly felt those alarm bells in the past and ignored them (with various unpleasant consequences) so maybe being better informed about the behaviour that is setting off my spidey senses will help.

ILoveHumanity Thank you for sharing your point of view. I'm happy for you that you're comfortable with yourself but afraid I have to agree with RitaMoreno that it seems the flip side of the same patriarchal coin. Surely the ideal is for female bodies to be neither displayed nor hidden, but simply seen in the same neutral way as male bodies generally are.

RitaMoreno You said so succinctly what I waffled on about for ages - the goal is to "reject the conditioning of seeing yourself through the male gaze." Thank you for putting it so perfectly. I've heard of the Levy book but not familiar with the Douglas, am ordering both now! I recently read Living Dolls by Natasha Walter and agreed with her points but didn't find it particularly radical - a lot of it seemed obvious even to a neophyte like me. I think I'm looking for something about how we can be deeply psychologically affected by the training to view ourselves through the male gaze DESPITE rejecting the outward behaviours expected... sorry if that doesn't make sense, need more coffee!

Again, thank you all for your suggestions. I'm really enjoying reading around this board - there are so many brilliant women posting, and you all seem much further along in the journey than I am, but I hope to get there!

Oh and I'll add Backlash to my list as well, thanks Fermat!

All this baggage takes time to unpack. It’s not a quick process and it’s one that can bring up a lot of emotions - anger, despair, the lot.

So as well as the excellent advice above I’d say give yourself time, be kind to yourself always. And be happy alone. For as long as you need. When you are content by yourself, in your own skin you stop making choices based on the need to please others.

Not being an ornament to others lives, but living doing and being in this one life,

it may not be evryone's experience but I have saved myself a whole load of shit by often working in female only or female dominated environments, and when child rearing, socialising almost exclusively with other women. Not that they were necessarily all feminists, it just made life easier and simpler.

Backlash by Susan Faludi
oceanofpdf.com/pdf-backlash-the-undeclared-war-against-american-women-download/

Boy, did you stumble upon the wrong forum ILoveHumanity, this would be the feminism/women's rights board, not the Surrendered Wives board. Completely opposite purposes - the first to liberate females from male domination, the latter to fully submit to male domination and control.

yet never saw my body until he fully accceptes me as a person
Did it make you feel like a Christmas present then?

Anyway, seconding what thebewilderness and RitaMoreno said in response to the ridiculous feminists/hijab assertion.