Shon Faye admits that transwomen need us to lie

[bd67th]

In the human shields thread, someone linked to a Kathleen Stock Twitter thread. Further down the thread was a link to an article quoting Shon Faye: "Fundamentally what someone is saying when they misgender you is that everything you've worked so hard to assert about yourself against all odds people lose families over this, people risk violence is, 'I have the power always to take that away and to say that you are not what you say you are,' and that there is some essence that you can never run away from...it's inherently a very psychologically dominant act."

This is evidence from a transwoman's mouth, that transwomen are indeed, as others have suggested, heavily if not completely dependent on others lying for their sense of self-worth.

I would counter Faye by saying that forcing everyone around you to lie about your biology by missexing you is a very psychologically dominant act.

This is the the 'essence' you can never run away from.

And some MTF trans people with dementia don't understand why they are dressed in what they perceive as women's clothes or why they are missing certain body parts:

www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-wales-43365446

Fundamentally what someone is saying when they misgender you is that everything you've worked so hard to assert about yourself against all odds people lose families over this, people risk violence is, 'I have the power always to take that away and to say that you are not what you say you are,' and that there is some essence that you can never run away from...it's inherently a very psychologically dominant act.

Although Shon has said some really offensive things (enjoy your erasure, shifting constellations) I do think they have a level of self awareness that means they could get it eventually.

I studied medicine at university. I started when I was just 17 and I am blessed with a very youthful appearance (which I am grateful for now but was not back then). When I qualified, I had no end of patients assuming I was on work experience from school etc. Some were really quite rude.

I had worked hard, just like Shon. Being a doctor was a massive part of my identity. And these patients did not affirm it.

It was not a physiological act of dominance however. It was not, because I had my qualification certificates framed on my wall. I was a doctor, and their refusal to affirm this was humiliating and tedious at times, but never psychologically damaging, because I knew I was right and they were wrong and I had the proof hanging on my wall.

I work in academia now, and many of my students, on receiving a bad grade, lament about how hard they have worked. They don’t understand that hard work itself is not enough. You have to work hard at the right things, and you have to have the aptitude in the first place.

I am sure Shon has worked hard. But the hard work they have done is in an entirely different subject.

They perceive a refusal to affirm as an act of phsychological dominance because they know they do not have the required certificates on the wall to make them right and me wrong.

They are not qualified.

They perceive a refusal to affirm as an act of phsychological dominance because they know they do not have the required certificates on the wall to make them right and me wrong.

They are not qualified.

Precisely, and every single one of them knows it. If they didn't there would be no need to try to control our speech. If someone tells me I'm not British it doesn't strike to the very core of my being and threaten my sense of identity, because I know that they're wrong and I have the documentation to prove it.

This 'essence' is fundamentally biology. None of us can ignore it, however hard we try.
It's a futile fight.
Widening how we accept men and women looking and living, that can be done.

'I have the power always to take that away and to say that you are not what you say you are,'

That's heartrending to read. It isn't people who have the 'power to take that away', it's truth and reality that have the power if:

• your sense of self is reliant on the opinion and approval of others
• you see it as the responsibility of other people to make you ok by meeting your needs
• your happiness is an external thing based on the environment and other people getting it right - if they don't, you can't be happy and it's their fault

These are personal issues that need counselling and the support of a good therapist for. They're not healthy or emotionally mature points of view, and they can't end in happiness; other people cannot be controlled into providing successfully at all times, it's a constant state of disappointment, failure and encountering that actually no stranger is that important or that much of a priority to the average person in the street. If someone holds power over you because you fear they will point out the truth you don't want spoken, then it isn't the person holding the power over you, it's you and your fear of that truth.

Miranda Yardley has written several very moving accounts of how hard it was to reach the point of acceptance of himself, that wasn't based on external validation, and how long it took, but how crucial it was to be able to let go any dependence on external validation to accept himself as he was and be happy.

Further down the thread was a link to an article quoting Shon Faye: "Fundamentally what someone is saying when they misgender you is that everything you've worked so hard to assert about yourself against all odds people lose families over this, people risk violence is, 'I have the power always to take that away and to say that you are not what you say you are,' and that there is some essence that you can never run away from...it's inherently a very psychologically dominant act."

This is evidence from a transwoman's mouth, that transwomen are indeed, as others have suggested, heavily if not completely dependent on others lying for their sense of self-worth.

I think you're reading in there…?

If someone tells me I'm not British it doesn't strike to the very core of my being and threaten my sense of identity, because I know that they're wrong and I have the documentation to prove it.

Have you tried reassuring the Jewish Chronicle with that?

And some MTF trans people with dementia don't understand why they are dressed in what they perceive as women's clothes or why they are missing certain body parts:

I’m surprised they haven’t had accusations of bigotry thrown at them yet.

Perhaps a better analogy than being British, a nationality which can be acquired and changed, is if someone were to dispute a material and unchangeable fact.
"You don't have two legs"
Looks.
Counts.
Dismisses challenge.

Hypothetically, I could validate Shon in many ways.
Born male, and we an article (2014?) declaring 'himself' (his pronouns at the time of writing) to be a man in make-up prior to 'his' transition.
Has since worked very hard to convince others of their progression from that former position to that of 'woman.'
Believes the definition of woman is .. 'Woman' is a loose, shifting constellation of biological, political and cultural phenomena which varies according to context , place ...and something else I don't remember.

Whilst I disagree with Shon on that definition of woman, I can meet the spirit of it by validating that Shon is a shifting constellation etc?

The thing I won't validate is that I am a shifting constellation, nor that Shon belongs in a category with humans with XX chromosomes and ovaries.

I can validate a lot of stuff for Shon.
The problem is, Shon wants me to validate that I belong in a category with Shon.

I can define myself without reference to Shon.
Unfortunately Shon cannot do the same.

Or "you don't have hazel eyes".

I mean, I could wear color contacts, and that might lead some people to think I have blue eyes for a while, but in reality they're still hazel and I still know that even if everyone else tells me they're green.

Quote of Shon Faye quoted in the OP - "there is some essence that you can never run away from".

Male people can try to run away from maleness, and female people can try to run away from femaleness, but their efforts and feelings will not get them closer to actually changing biological sex (as distinct from changing legal sex, which can be achieved but only because it is "no skin off the nose" of a government).

I would not describe biological sex as an essence. I describe it as a reality or a truth.

Womanhood is being a woman.
A woman is an adult female human.

Genuine gender dysphoria is very rare and such people are not the problem.

What have we been saying all along? It's all about males and male domination eg; sportsmen past their prime or unable to compete with their peers but still wanting glory. Putting on make up and tying their hair in a pony tail doesn't change their chromosomes or physical build etc neither does it alter their sense of male entitlement or their need to win at all costs.

And some so-called feminists just can't see this.

I can validate a lot of stuff for Shon.
The problem is, Shon wants me to validate that I belong in a category with Shon.

I can define myself without reference to Shon.
Unfortunately Shon cannot do the same.

Brilliant. It's exactly that. I can define myself. A woman. As a concept, I don't need men or transwomen to even exist in order to do that.

And that's also the problem with the word cis. It requires my definition to be in reference to something else. No thanks. Such cheek.

Fundamentally what someone is saying when they misgender you is that everything you've worked so hard to assert about yourself against all odds -- people lose families over this, people risk violence

It also takes a certain arrogance to admit that lying about who you are encounters relentless opposition from everyone you know, and then actually use that fact against the next set of people who object to being forced into the same lie.

It's such an odd argument. No one will lie, and that makes you also bad for not lying.

I can define myself without reference to Shon.
Unfortunately Shon cannot do the same.

THIS. They know this and they hate it. That's one of the reasons they want to force us to call ourselves "cis".

It also takes a certain arrogance to admit that lying about who you are encounters relentless opposition from everyone you know, and then actually use that fact against the next set of people who object to being forced into the same lie.

Yes. Also what does Shon mean by "violence" here? Real actual violence, or retaliatory misgendering?

Is shon Faye the one who likes illegal extreme porn and wants it legalised?

To the point that it's their specialist area?

No, that's Jane Fae.

Shon has suggested that women enjoy their erasure, and their advice to youngsters is 'suck dick, get tits early'.

apologies to shon.

I remember that other quote. My dd started growing "tits" at 8.5, is that early enough? How many cocks should she be sucking now she's 11?

Well quite. It illuminating to me, that Shon is so overwhelmingly radical about their position. By dint of the fact that even though they are bright, their agenda leaches out.

Shon's credibility has been forever destroyed. They just couldn't help themselves. They're that arrogant.

This is the the 'essence' you can never run away from.

*And some MTF trans people with dementia don't understand why they are dressed in what they perceive as women's clothes or why they are missing certain body parts:

www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-wales-43365446

This worries me too.

The article says "Sean Page, consultant nurse for dementia at BCUHB, said it was important the specific needs of transgender dementia patients were met to ensure they were cared for appropriately.

He said: "As dementia progresses a person may not recall their current gender and they may see themselves being pre-transition and be surprised at the physical changes to their bodies.

"This can result in them becoming very disorientated and anxious. They may not understand why they are being referred to as being a certain gender as they cannot recall publicly voicing this preference."

they cannot recall publicly voicing this preference cannot recall publically voicing, or voicing it at all?

If a trans person has dementia and displays distress at their transitioned look, rather than the delight, relief or 'rightness' as we are told that many transitioned people feel, I think it undermines the idea that being trans has always been innate and intrinsic to a transperson from a young age.

I understand that a person with dementia may feel desperately confused that they have aged or in recognising their older body and that this can be very frightening. It is heartrending to have to see people suffer the distress and confusion and not be able to explain it in a way that they can fully grasp and come to terms with.

But aren't we always told that transition is a vital and life saving relief to most trans people that they have been desperate for at their lives?

Or is there actually a part of them that does not feel this way? Of course this seems like it would apply more to AGP trans people.

I would honestly like to know how dementia patients experience this scenario and I think it would be so useful to this field of study and understanding to compassionately but objectively examine their unihibited responses and reactions.

I expect they will receive copious and possibly overwhelming postiive affirmation though.

I find that article incredibly sad. Dementia is such a cruel and difficult illness, to have that kind of additional distress added in is awful.
It does raise all sorts of questions though about self identity.

If a trans person has dementia and displays distress at their transitioned look, rather than the delight, relief or 'rightness' as we are told that many transitioned people feel, I think it undermines the idea that being trans has always been innate and intrinsic to a transperson from a young age.

Wow. That is so true.

Yep.

This needs more research in conjunction with the findings that trans people have different brain structure in areas relating to self perception.

Interesting. Every self-esteem guru tells you page one that you cannot require external validation, you need an internal locus of validation.