is it fair othat older transwomen get to stay on HRT for life?

[intheparcark]

is it fair that NHS gps will more than likely prescribe HRT for transwomen for life?
On the other hand, middle aged women are often bullied into stopping it after 60.
even though for a lot of women, their mental and physical health depends on taking HRT.
A lot of younger women don't realize that for a large percentage of women, menopausal symptoms (hot flushes, low libido, depression, brain fog, insomnia and mood swings) NEVER GO AWAY.

I'm assuming that all these middle aged men who want to become women won't be 'getting the talk' from their GP after they've been on HRT for so many years

It's not as if there is a limited supply of hormones and transwomen have snaffled them all. If doctors won't prescribe HRT for health reasons, tackle that. But please dont turn it into another bloody trans thread

Surely the issue is a really that HRT is perfectly safe for long term use and therefore both TW and women should be able to access it without jumping through hoops,.or that long term use is unsafe in which case. Other TW and women should be advised against it.

Thanks for the first-hand information @homefromthehills And your point:
Problem is this is the 5000 or so transsexuals all of whom have long term medical monitoring. If Self ID comes in then countless more will have no medical pathway but still might self medicate off the internet. The removal of medical assessment will create real health risks.
is worrying.

We are racing helter-skelter into unknown territory it seems - although for once it isn't women's biologies & physiologyies which are the site of experiment, as in early work on the Pill and indeed HRT. But it's still worrying territory ...

I'm post-menopausal, and managed menopause with absolutely no medical help at all. It wasn't raised with me, and the one time I wondered out loud to my GP about HRT, it was not commented on or followed up.

To be fair, the only lasting symptom I have is worrying (to me) memory loss on the silliest of things - mostly names. The momentary brain fog is horrid really awful, but as my job is about knowing more than most people have to about words & ideas, maybe I just notice it more.

I didn't push for HRT and I'm nearing 60 (periods stopped at around 55-56) so it's probably too late. One of the reasons I didn't push was all the negative press about the risks. But it seems if I had asked, I'd have had difficulties in being prescribed ...

I used to have extremely painful periods in my 30s - pain that made me throw up & get cold sweats & shakes about once every 6 months or so. But I just put up with it, took days off work, gritted my teeth & tried to sleep through the pain.

I thought that that was what I had to do there is such a culture of women suffering, and thinking there is nothing that can be done.

I'm on HRT and plan to continue to stay on it as last night as I can, as I'm concerned about osteoporosis which is a big problem for the older women in my family. I pay for my prescriptions so that's £8 something (not sure how much a prescription is these days). Every three months. I assume transwomen pay the same for their HT? Is that the case?

@Rainhunter Yes, trans women have the same prescription charges as women do and it sounds like I'm paying about the same as you.

homefromthehills that's very interesting about the different medical issues surrounding prescribing for women and transwomen (though of course it makes perfect sense). As I said upthread, it shouldn't be an either/or thing, nor should prescribing cost come into it particularly (the first form of HRT I took was actually cheaper than the prescription charge - I looked it up in the British formulary). Synthetic female hormones have been around so long and are so widely used that there's a lot of non-branded generics around.

Also interested that it's one of the reasons you think self ID would be a bad thing (I think the problems self ID poses for members of the trans community is often understated - correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd imagine the health risks to transmen of getting testosterone off the internet are even higher still).

Rain - you must be on oestrogen only. I'm on a combined oestrogen/progesterone cyclic thing, and get hit with double prescription charges . Sorry! Sounding like a menopausal three Yorkshiremen sketch here!

I have always found male GPs vastly more sympathetic and supportive than female in any menstruation/menopause problems and generally ask to see a male.
My theory is that females who have undergone the difficult and rigorous processes that are required for medical qualification have never been plagued by these issues, therefore they genuinely don’t understand them. And I have had a male GP tell me that he understands, he has a relative with similar problems.

I get hit with a double charge too (The arbitrary double charge thing also means anyone getting two surgical stockings on prescription has to pay a double charge too )

Mixed, I'd say, born. My old GP was a delightful man from the Hebrides who happily put me on HRT having checked the NICE guidelines and said "happy to prescribe on symptoms alone, blood tests probably wouldn't tell us anything conclusive anyway." On the other hand, the worst GP I ever had was a (rather creepy) man while I was a student (who had some very weird kink about diagnosing every woman student who came his way with pregnancy: present with appendicitis - "could you be pregnant?", present with glandular fever - "could you be pregnant?" We reckoned he could have interpreted a verruca as a possible pregnancy symptom). Women GPs likewise hit and miss (though I do suspect some of it comes down to whether they or someone close to them has had gynae problems of any sort, or whether they're the sort of women who've sailed through it all and assume that others must just be being a bit whingy).

Fermats Theorem - yes, the testosterone problem may be even more severe. This is hugely transformative and irreversible. You only need look at the trans actor now playing Matty in Emmerdale to see how rapidly they transform a body in a short time. And in aggressive ways. For that to even be considered via self ID and off the internet would be serious.

There are many reasons - both for the protection of women's rights and for the interests of the transitioner why removing all existing gatekeeping just to make it 'easier' would be foolhardy.

It would be easier to stop making people have a driving test and allow cars to go at 150 mph down the High Street if someone was in a hurry.

But we impose restrictions as a society to protect others from potential abusers and the abusers from themselves.

I do not see this situation as being significantly different that we should not have a sensible mix of freedom and precaution.

When lives and health and safety are at stake it is staggering anyone would even think otherwise.

Blimey, I didn't even know you could get HRT post menopause! My Dr advised me to stop as soon as I felt I could 'manage' without it, and so I took it for a couple of months... I could do without the depression, mood swings, and could do with return of libido. I'm probably too old now or I'd go back and ask.

But no, I don't begrudge it to TW. Wouldn't want to be in their shoes at all.

You paint a sad picture, many women are perfectly OK without HRT.

Not only that, if a woman needed it for medical reasons after the age of 60, she would get it! However most don't.

You don't pay for prescriptions once you're past 60.

I've never heard of resentment against any other person's prescription, weird.

I'm on femoston conti.

I'm in my early 60s and on HRT. No one has suggested I come off it. My GP took a careful history and my risks are low, plus I had the most godawful menopause. Over a decade of it. At the end of my tether I said I didn't understand it, my mum breezed through. My dear doctor raised an eyebrow and said I was probably having my dad's menopause.

Rebecca some women are fine with the menopause. Some aren't. Fortunately for those who aren't, HRT is (barring contraindications discussed upthread) a reasonably safe set of drugs to use.

It's a bit like periods. Some women's periods are fine. Some suffer crippling, debilitating pain and endometriosis.

I like the driving licence analogy, homefromthehills. It's similar to one I've used on the past on here, apropos of the issue of social constructs. Just because something is a social construct doesn't mean it doesn't have real world consequence, or that anything goes and there are no rules around it at all. Money is my usual go-to example. Totally a social construct, but you're screwed without it. And furthermore you're not allowed to simply scribble "I promise to pay the bearer on demand of the sum of ten pounds" on an old bus ticket then use it to buy stuff with.

To Rainhunter: There ia a new, effective drug for osteoporis, no-one needs to stay on HRT to prevent that any more.

they're not having diminished levels of oestrogen & progesterone replaced - oestrogen & progesterone are being added.

I love that.
So a woman who has relied on oestrogen & progesterone for most of her life, isn't allowed to have it replaced.
but it's ok to give a born male oestrogen & progesterone, because it's being added. That's OK then.

That is every kind of wrong. Way to treat natural born women like shit

Logically, when a TW reaches, say, 60, then maybe she needs to go through a medically-induced copy of a real menopause?

That's never going to happen.
Middle aged men who transition don't even give themselves age appropriate names. Most of the names sound like something a high school cheerleader would have.
I hardly think they're going to want to 'go through the menopause'

I like this thread - women, transwomen (and a doctor!) talking about some stuff we have in common and some stuff that’s different and figuring out what could be done better in future.

Home from the hills have to totally agree on this, medical professionals are now starting to look at longer term use of hrt in trans woman who have been on for a considerable time. something that had previously not happened and what the best prescribing regime actually is to minimise risk associated with there use. this is something I am. very much interested in.

Its purely financial , do not fold to male GP,s telling you to stop HRT , Its just after age 60 , they don't want to switch you to Dermal HRT (but they are expensive)
Gp,s know if they removed hormones for XY females or people who have had GRS they would be sued,

I don't have much information about M2F ,s but don't imagine they take Progesterones,

I have taken on GP,s locally for all my lesbian friends to be switched from the cheap and nasty oral preparations which are metabolised through the liver
and also taken on this Governement over the removal of prescription medicated FH products that were removed from Prescription earlier in the year

Females over 60 should be transferred over from oral to natural human Oestrogen skin patches , suggest you contact your local womens support group , who should be able to assist you, if you don't ask you don't get

older Transmen use dermal Testosterone skin patches for people over 60 which is safer than Sustenon Injetions (although they aren't licensed for use with transmen in the UK )

without these hormones people will may experience bone thining ,in later life
its in the best interests of the NHS to look after all people, to stop any possibility of Orthopaedic proceedures in later life

don't use this as another opportunity to bash transpeople, because they and us Lesbians are better organised than most other people

Any woman struggling to get HRT needs to push hard for a referral to a menopause clinic. There are shockingly few and I travel a long way to mine but it is utterly worth it.
Also menopausematters forum immensely helpful.

There are different forms of oestrogen and progesterone just like there are different types of painkillers, and it's as useless bundling them up in a study and extrapolating as it would be to say 'painkillers' increase risk of heart attacks. Which painkillers? Aspirin? Morphine? Lavender oil?

As others have pointed out, menopause affects women differently, and HRT can be life-changing for those who want it.
For my part, the risk to my health is significantly higher if I don't take it than if I do. My doctors advised me to take it. I've been on it for 4 years and will remain on it for many more. It's been health saving for me.

I don't think we'll know for a long time what the impact will be of introducing female hormone levels into a male body long term. My best guess is that outcomes will be poorer for it.

I don't think we'll know for a long time what the impact will be of introducing female hormone levels into a male body long term. My best guess is that outcomes will be poorer for it.

Terminology is important too, we should be talking about cross sex hormones or so-called HRT or some other phrase. Using the term HRT for someone born male just buys into the whole TWAW ideology IMO.

Agree that if it's osteoporosis prevention then there are better drugs for that and I'd discuss it with your GP but I wouldn't take osteoporosis drugs unless a DEXA scan had showed I had osteoporosis. Crunching of bones is more likely to be osteoarthritis Thesuzle. Testosterone isn't licensed in the UK for use in women apart from injectable testosterone for breast cancer which I presume is very specialised as I've never seen it used. The US used to use testosterone in HRT formulations, not sure if they still do but I did have a disgruntled American woman unhappy she couldn't get her usual formulation when she moved here.
I think calling any of the HRT formulations natural is wishful thinking. 17B oestradiol is produced naturally in our bodies but for HRT patches is synthesised in large vats from androsta-1,4-
diene-3,17-dione (ADD) which is produced from cholesterol. Not sure where they get the cholesterol from but suspect it's more industrial processes. You can still get HRT from conjugated mare's urine in tablet form and there's Duavive which is conjugated oestrogen in tab form with bazedoxifene (no idea where that conjugated oestrogen comes from) for women who don't want progesterones.
I usually prescribe the patches as they should have fewer side effects although there's no evidence that i know of to say the blood clot and breast cancer risk is reduced but I think that's because they haven't got the data on patches alone.

Frazzled, when you have had GRS, you ARE replacing hormones that are needed because your body is no longer producing any.

Men and women have varying amounts of BOTH testosterone and estrogen. Varying levels create problems in both sexes totally out of context of being trans.