Prisons

[Rumbledore]

After reading a few posts about trans women and prisons. I'm interested to know if there are trans men in male prisons? Do they get to choose between male or female prisons?

No, there are currently none. I'm not sure if there ever have been any, however.

The government guidelines say they get to choose but are unlikely to choose the male estate (funny that).

Think Govt were also saying they have no figures on how many female born trans there are in either estate.

The Fair Play For Women site has lots of info and research on this. Unlike the MoJ apparently.

Someone on here posted a FOI (I think it was) recently which said there were none.

Thanks Vicky. FPFW has most accurate info.

But am sure you are right, that was not meant to sound like I didn't believe you!

No, there are currently none. I'm not sure if there ever have been any, however.

Of course there have been
Probably are at present but many trans people apparently feel so unsafe that they de-transition so statistics are unreliable

www.themarshallproject.org/2018/06/14/my-road-to-acceptance-as-a-trans-man-began-in-prison

I'm not sure what relevant someone's account of being in prison in Georgia, USA has to the discussion here, which is about prisons in the UK

Both vulnerable trans people and vulnerable women should be safe in prisons.

This article was good on the rights issues around this:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/07/are-female-prisoners-at-risk-from-transgender-inmates/amp/

None in the UK prison population presently, Snappity.
I’m sure you realised that though?

Thank you for your comments. So why aren't there transmen in men's prisons? If they don't feel safe with men, would they feel safe with trans women in women's prisons?

In terms of safety, one of the big elephants in the prison cell is that around half the current population of TW prisoners have been incarcerated for sex crimes. So although the TW population more generally may be no more or no less likely to pose a threat to women, the prison population absolutely does, particularly given how tough it can be to secure a conviction for sex offences

I think we know the answer to why there are no transmen in prisons.

It's because they are women, and they don't commit the type of crimes that require them to be incarcerated for the public's protection. If they are involved in any type of crime, then it is low-level, non-violent, no-risk to the public types of offences that attract cautions, fines and community sentences.

Alternatively, they are involved in 'white collar crime' and haven't been caught yet.

I said No, there are currently none. I'm not sure if there ever have been any, however.

Snappity snapped Of course there have been

I'm not sure why Snappity felt obliged to be so fucking snotty when I said I wasn't sure about something.

Snappity
See Francis Crook's comment in recent article,

'As more trans women who were convicted as men hope to follow rapist Martin Ponting into female wings, prison governors fear vulnerable inmates could be attacked'

(extract)
"Ms Crook, executive director of the Howard League for Penal Reform, added: ‘These men are not transitioning because they like women and want to be a woman, but in order to exert a new kind of control and dominance over women, a sort of infiltration.

‘Moreover, the process is inherently discriminatory. A woman identifying as a man could not be transferred to a man’s jail because placing a person with female attributes into a prison to live with 1,000 men, all using communal showers and living areas, would put them in serious danger.’

The Ministry of Justice refuses to say how many of the 25 transgender prisoners in women’s jails – almost double previous estimates – were born men, and how many were women identifying as men.

Last night, it again refused to release this information, claiming it does not hold this data – although there are transgender inmates in just seven women’s prisons.

The ministry has confirmed there are no female-born transgender inmates in men’s jails (continues)

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5798945/Trans-women-convicted-men-attack-vulnerable-inmates.html

Thanks Rowantrees.

I wonder of those 25 transgender prisoners in women's jails how many were born male.

And how many if any of the mere 40 'women' in prison for violent crimes are actually males. It could be 25 for all we know. Or none.

There's a lot of information and data about the impact of trans rights on the female prison estate:
fairplayforwomen.com/prisons/

It's because they are women, and they don't commit the type of crimes that require them to be incarcerated for the public's protection. If they are involved in any type of crime, then it is low-level, non-violent, no-risk to the public types of offences that attract cautions, fines and community sentences.

Actually Pam, it is a bit more of the opposite - in that a majority of women in prison actually receive custodial sentences, when the dudely type would not get a custodial sentence, for similar non-violent crime. But yes, most women are in prison for non-violent crime.

Two thirds of women in prison, are in for short sentences (six months or less). And the prison population is roughly 95% male, 5% female, and if you look at the 'over 4 year' sentences, males are much higher than 95% of that population. There are women in prison on those longer sentences for killing an abusive partner (or pimp).

For stats, although based on 2004-2011, see here

Recent article from The Independent in response to propsosed changes Govt. Prison policy which identifies some of the key sex-specific (long recognised) aspects in offender profiles of females in the prison estate.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women-prison-uk-community-sentences-centres-reoffending-rates-children-funding-a8418271.html

I suspect this court hearing (scheduled for Sept) will be something of a landmark case going forward.

TH is a Transwoman (no similar cases of Transmen have hit the news so this is most info we have re: the current position) the circumstances around TH’snincarceration were high profile at the time and thus well documented across tabloids and broadsheets. TH has done several interviews since and the story is always a little different. There is a thread highlighting these differences on here somewhere - the inconsistency could well be due to poor journalistic standards, of course. The governor of the women’s prison TH was transferred to has been reported as being very GC, although I cannot recall if that was through direct quotes or TH’s allegations of discrimination.

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/20/tara-hudson-transgender-prisoner-sues-government

www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/bath-transgender-woman-suing-government-1650979

There are only three women who have ever received a whole-life tariff btw - one of those was imposed by the trial judge & other two were imposed by Home Secretaries. Out of approx 100 overall.

There are only three women who have ever received a whole-life tariff btw

Myra Hindley, Rose West and ...?

Neither of the above acted alone, either.

1. Joanna Dennehy.

These are the up-to-date key facts about women in prison in the UK.
They are prepared by the organisation Women In Prison.

It's a useful, at-a-glance, list covering everything from their backgrounds, suicides and their treatment on release. A truly awful indictment of our country.

www.womeninprison.org.uk/research/key-facts.php

Thanks Betty was not aware of that one. Although she did seem to have 'male helpers'? Certainly an odd-duck if she was the primary.

Female pyschopaths are rare, but they do exist. Like most females, violent crime is far less than male counterparts, even in the world of psychopathy.

Interesting Pam. But it does confirm what I said, even if some of the figures shifted slightly.

The number of community sentences for women has fallen by nearly half in the last decade

I read that as more get custodial over community sentences, not good.

Most women entering prison serve short sentences. 70% of sentenced women entering prison in 2016 were serving six months or less.

This is a slight rise on before. Meaning, more women are getting custodial sentences, confirming the above speculation.

Around one-third of women prisoners lose their homes, and often their possessions, while in prison.

This is tragic. And sets them backwards, and more likely to re-offend. If they were not given the custodial, instead a community sentence, this could be avoided. Leading to...

48% of women are reconvicted within one year of leaving prison.

and finally

Some foreign national women in prison are known to have been coerced or trafficked into offending

Disgusting. Double victimisation. The law has no humanity at all.