“Man is a loose, shifting constellation ....”

[Oscarino]

This is probably a bit confused, I’m trying to work out my thinking

“Man is a loose shifting constellation ofbiological, political and cultural phenomena which varies according to context,place and time”

If ‘man’ is as boundary less as ‘woman’, if there is literally no characteristic, physical or otherwise, that would allow us to say “that person is not a man”, how can any adult human male say that they know that they are not a man - that they know that they are, in fact, a woman. What is there to know? Anybody can be a woman therefore anybody can be a man - why choose one rather than the other?

Surely this is simply taking yourself out of one meaningless category and placing yourself into another - what is the point?

Rather than ask “what makes you a woman?” I would ask “what makes you not a man?” Or I would if this was not immediately shot down as violent misgendering.

I have a feeling though that ‘man’ is not as boundary less as woman.

Don't tell me we're not the "not men" sex!! /s

Maybe that's what we should call the ones who think they can change sex - the "not men" and "not women"

I didn’t mean woman = not man (although I can see it could read like that). I meant how can anybody decide they are not a man if biology is meaningless and it has nothing to do with gender stereotypes.

Yes, why aren’t we struggling to redefine what it means to be a man and broadening the bandwidth of masculinity?

Yes indeed.

Instead of asking "what is a woman?", perhaps we should ask: What is a woman and what is a man and how are they different?

I may need to duck for cover from the heavily dressed word salad coming my way in response though!

That's exactly it Bertrand Russell.

The trouble is we don't need to redefine it.

Women have no problem with the definition of "man = adult human male" ie an adult person who was a boy, and was born a baby with penis and testicles and XY chromosomes.

We don't include things like masculine or rough or strong or manly in our definition. Nor do we include "wearing a suit" or "having short hair" or "being hairy".

It's not women who have to widen the bandwidth of "man". We know that a drag queen, for example, is included in our (and the dictionary's) definition of man. As is a male person in a dress, make-up and high heels. Even if such a person is taking made-for-women medication.

It's men we need to persuade to redefine the definition of "man" - it seems to me that many men have such a narrow definition of "man" that they believe loads of male people aren't included in it. Good luck with changing their minds.

It's men we need to persuade to redefine the definition of "man" - it seems to me that many men have such a narrow definition of "man" that they believe loads of male people aren't included in it. Good luck with changing their minds.

Yep. I've occasionally run across women as obsessed with masculinity as the average man, but they're the exception rather than the rule, and aren't the ones who're going to be beating up the men and boys who're failing to perform masculinity to their expectations.

This is a men's problem and men need to solve it.

This is a men's problem and men need to solve it

Completely agree with this.

Well quite. I asked some time ago "how do you know you're a man?"

This question to the non trans men who insist that we accept TWAW because they "just know they are"

I felt by turning it round it might make the point that there IS no "feeling" that denotes sex. Only the physical reality.

Not had an answer yet.

There is absolutely not even the tiniest morsel of sense in any of this nonsense. No, not even a speck.

What is a man?
I don't know.
Are you a man?
Absolutely not.
What is a woman?
I couldn't say?
How are you a woman?
I just feel it.

Liar, liar, liar. Words are just noises until they are imbued with meaning. Noone can reject or vehemently claim a meaningless noise. It is always completely transparent that these words have meanings both to those who acknowledge this and those who refuse.

Lives are being wasted on this rubbish.
You can't identify out of or into biology.
You can't demand people validate you in something untrue.
You can't group OTHER people in a false way so that you can claim to match them.

No good has ever come from an entire society endorsing a lie.

Male and female exist and are unchangeable. They are not identities.

I judge those who are participating in and perpetuating the lie.

When I heard of the original tweet, I could not help but think of "A big ball of wibbly wobbly, timey wimey stuff", on a parallel for 'solid' definitions.

Fae's tweet now deleted btw, <a class="break-all" href="https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:HAz0airn8gEJ:twitter.com/shonfaye/status/980856964002574336%3Flang%3Den+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au&client=firefox-b" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">but still cached here.

Fae finishes that tweet with "While it's possible to notice strong correlations among these; it is impossible to mandate exclusive criteria." (or 'hey everybody, 'woman' is up for grabs!')

Sorry for the derail.

There is absolutely not even the tiniest morsel of sense in any of this nonsense. No, not even a speck.

This is an excellent summary of the situation.

For gender true believers everything is so nebulous and free floating, nothing can be defined, each person is speaking their own language using words that cannot be tied down to a specific meaning. At the same time everything is so absolute- trans gender is nothing like trans racial, sex is not a binary, trans women are women, trans men are men and non-binary identities are valid and if you don’t agree you will be punished.

You have to just believe blindly - and they can’t even explain what it is you’re supposed to be believing.

It all comes down to I want I want I want, and I’m right so give it to me now you mean nasty bigot. I don’t have to give you answers, so get out of my way or I’ll force you.
Name me any other situation in life where that would be acceptable?

I read this as "Man is a loose shitting consternation" - which IME is closer to the truth.

It all comes down to I want I want I want, and I’m right so give it to me now you mean nasty bigot.

Badly behaved toddlers. Except now some of them are 6’ tall, weigh 15 stone and are advising the government.

Badly behaved toddlers. Except now some of them are 6’ tall, weigh 15 stone and are advising the government....

...to put women and girls in positions of permanent risk and jeopardy and to reduce safeguarding across the board.

Yes, this is what pisses me off. Well, one of the things. Words have to mean things or we're just grunting at each other. Even when I ask TRAs to define their terms so that we can actually communicate with shared language, I'm accused of fucking language policing!

I have come to the same conclusion as many of you, they are liar liar pants on fire. They don't want defined terms, the esoteric pomo word salad is part of the appeal, part of the specialness and initiation. We're supposed to be too dazzled and guilt tripped to have the ability to say No.

Well I'm saying it. NO. Transwomen are not women, woman means something - it has a legal, scientific and cultural meaning that excludes men. You can't have it, it's taken. NO.