Do we have self ID already?

[Macareaux]

This is from the GRA consultation:

113 The Equality Act enables separate or differing services to males and females, or to one sex only subject to certain criteria. These services can treat the people with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment differently, or exclude them completely, but only where the action taken is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim
114 As an example, refusing a transwoman with or without a GRC access to a female toilet in a pub is likely to be unlawful, but a female only domestic violence refuge may provide a separate service to a transwoman only if it can be shown that there is detriment to other service users from including the transwoman as part of the regular service.

This seems to say that anyone calling themselves a woman is entitled to be in women's spaces.

Literally all guidance except those shared by anti-trans sites such as fairplay for women and WPUK, agree's on this.

These anti-trans sites are literally isolated in their interpretations of the equality act.

Garam the trans lobby's nodebate hashtag has been extremely successful in silencing women. Very few sites allow gender critical comments any more. Everyday Feminism, The Guardian, Pink News... Those are just the first three off the top of my head. All delete comments that don't entirely endorse the trans agenda.

Pink News, which used to be the paper for the LGB community, has silenced lesbians who want to protest the lesbophobia and misogyny of heterosexual men who identify as women and therefore as lesbians.

The reason there are few sites where the debate continues is that TRAs have put an enormous amount of time and energy into silencing debate all over the internet, and people are terrified of accusations of transphobia.

The fact that Mumsnet, with its 12 million mostly female users, is largely gender critical makes TRAs very angry. Which suggests to me that we're doing something right.

We want a debate. We're all for openness and transparency. We have nothing to fear from facts, data and logic.

Garam and Snappty - is it your view that ALL transwomen should have access to single sex spaces?

Thats already how the law currently works, my opinion is irrelevant.

The lack of harms caused by these laws so far, means they will not be rolled back...

Thats already how the law currently works, my opinion is irrelevant.

It is subjective. Don't pretend that males routinely invade female spaces at the moment. This is increasing as we are at a tipping point.

garam you cannot successfully argue lack of harms because if the crimes are being recorded as woman on woman, then we would never really know who is harming who.

Stats shows there was a big jump in women commiting violent crime around 2000 ish, but how many of these were transwomen or males IDing as women? We need the raw data on sex, gender and trans status.

Garam - the problem is, as already mentioned, the numbers of those identifying as ‘trans’ are increasing. This is causing the NHS problems.

I have first hand experience of this. People identifying as women, who everyone involved in their care is extremely dubious about, but no one is brave enough to challenge.

Women with a history of male violence and rape are being forced to share single sex spaces with these people.

These women are uncomfortable. They are frightened. They bite their tongue and keep out of the way. If they have a quiet word in a nurse’s ear they are told not to ‘make a fuss’, ‘we must be accepting’. The NHS policies say they are bigoted and will be moved if the complain.

Some of these women have been abused by men since they were 4 years old. They are told they have to share a ward with someone with a penis, a beard, in male clothing, without fuss. It’s heartbreaking.

So many excellent comments so far - I wish this site had a 'like comment' option.

Instead, some shameless copy/pasting:

JackyHolyoake Fri 20-Jul-18 16:02:55

There is much conflict between the GRA 2004 and EqA 2010. Our campaign must focus on making the EqA Exceptions the default position and demand that any deviation from that default position must involve a formal Risk Assessment, embracing input from natal female stakeholders, to explain why such deviation is essential.

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PencilsInSpace Fri 20-Jul-18 16:41:30

For the sex based exceptions we have to show 'legitimate aim' every single time. The legitimacy of women having our own single sex spaces or services is constantly up for question and the only examples of legitimacy that are provided are where women have been raped or abused. And even then we have to do the 'case by case' BS

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Bowlofbabelfish Fri 20-Jul-18 17:19:05

The emphasis is all wrong imo. [...] So why is the default now to allow men in? Surely the onus is on those who wish to turn a single sex space unisex to make the case. On a case by case basis.

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PencilsInSpace Fri 20-Jul-18 18:05:33

The statutory code and technical guidance strongly imply that there is a different standard for those with and without a GRC

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Bowlofbabelfish Fri 20-Jul-18 18:36:10

If humans cannot change sex, why are spaces becoming unisex?

You will not say you believe humans can change sex. Nobody I’ve ever asked will say they believe it. Yet you are expecting women to give up all their rights and protections as if it were true.

So I will ask you again - can humans change sex? What are transwomen transitioinjng from exactly?

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bigwhitecat Fri 20-Jul-18 19:14:28

The NHS are TERRIFIED of appearing transphobic. [...] But, they are bewildered and frightened by the crossfire between stonewall & members of staff who are objecting to trans policies (that allow anyone who says they are women into women’s wards).

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OlennasWimple Fri 20-Jul-18 20:14:13

It's all very well going on about "this is how things have been for eight years and there haven't been any problems", when everyone knows that in that period we have gone from the TW who would use the ladies loos being those who have got a GRC; to those who haven't got a GRC but make a great effort to pass (eg P Lees); to those who haven't got a GRC and make minimal effort to pass (eg D Moscato); to those who haven't got a GRC and claim to be a woman sometimes and a man sometimes (eg P Bunce); to those those who don't have a GRC, claim to be gender queer but sometimes entitled to use the females facilities on their whim and fancy (eg T Alabanza)

It's disingenuous in the extreme to try to claim that anyone involved in the drafting of the Equality Act had in mind the Moscato / Bunce / Alabanzas of this world. They clearly meant those with a GRC and those (like Lees) who do a decent job of passing.

bigwhitecate

With this new influx into 'woman' - the NHS objective of single SEX wards is a bit of a failed mission.

cat, not cate, dunno where that 'e' came from

YY bigwhitecat

I do not buy into the offensive 'facts' that transpeople have been hurt so much worse than other people. Maybe just as badly but with different mental/emotional responses but we all know women and children who have had abhorrent experiences with abuse.

But as I thought when JustineMNHQ posted on the rules thread, it must be that women being hurt is just so 'normal', so commonplace, so intrinsic to the way things are, that some people can give it barely any importance at all.

It makes me sick :(

LaSquirrel- yes, It is a failed mission.

I’ve stated that if this is the route we’re travelling in the NHS, it might be preferable to abandon single sex spaces altogether.

Thete’s always a sharp intake of breath, but at least we will know what we’re working with then, and can put in place appropriate measures to manage safeguarding and risk.

I actually played bingo on Facebook with someone this week. Really straightforward post about this issue, my first open comment. And I got the full cliché bingo card. A guardian article, transwomen facing way more violence than 'cis' women, there is nothing to be concerned about, why can't we work together, you're so hateful etc.

From someone I would have hoped understood how vulnerable women are and why. It is disheartening. But we're beginning to be heard for the right reasons, despite what our resident Gadflies like to pretend.

it might be preferable to abandon single sex spaces altogether.

Single sex spaces are the safeguard though. If my 94 year old great aunt hospitalised (as she is now) and doesn’t want to sleep in the same room as strange men, why should she be forced to because we’re suddenly responsible for the feelings of a tiny minorities?

If we could get to the Guardian, the hive mind of woke men would slowly wake up. Pity we don't have influence.

I agree entirely CanineEnigma.

I’m saying this in NHS meetings, when discussing this issue, in the vain hope that it will highlight the bonkers situation we’re in.

It makes people visibly uncomfortable which is good, I think.

I’m saying this in NHS meetings, when discussing this issue, in the vain hope that it will highlight the bonkers situation we’re in.

It makes people visibly uncomfortable which is good, I think.

You are very brave. It is good. Well done

I notice that these questions went unanswered yet again:

Bowlofbabelfish
So you say that humans can’t change sex. Then you say transwomen are women.

The two statements are contradictory.

What have these transwomen transitioned from?

And:

OldCrone
In what way is a transwoman a woman? A woman is an adult female human, someone who was born with female reproductive organs (this applies equally to those women who are born without some of those organs, or who have had any of them removed, or who are infertile for any reason).

It is my understanding that I cannot be a transwoman, because I was born with the organs described above, and in order to be a transwoman, one cannot have been born with any of those organs.

So in what way is a transwoman a woman? It seems to me that whatever a transwoman is, it is anything but a woman.

We cannot have a discussion when we have no common language. So if Garam and Snappity or anyone else could clarify their terms that would be great. What is a woman? What is a transwoman? What is gender identity and why should society organise around it instead of sex?

garam
men are not allowed, just trans women.....

How can we tell the difference?

Evolution gave us the ability to identify men , but we dont have the ability to identify the transwomen subset of men.

bigwhitecat great work

Ereshkigal & Waddle - thanks. That’s kind.

It’s very hard not to say anything when you’re faced with such ill-thought through policies. It has though made the last few months the hardest of my (very long) career in the NHS. I feel upset by it all, and quite vulnerable as an employee.

Having said that, behind closed doors I’ve still yet to meet a clinician who doesn’t agree with me. It’s difficult for people to speak up, but I think they’re getting there.

I’m saying this in NHS meetings, when discussing this issue, in the vain hope that it will highlight the bonkers situation we’re in

You are very brave, bigwhitecat. Thank you for speaking up.

Bigwhitecat You are not alone! More of us in the NHS are speaking out and voicing our concerns.

vitriol

They never answer - because they don’t have a good answer. There is only one logically coherent answer to the question I posed, and it’s not The one they want me to believe.

Hackedoffwoman - great to hear!