Is transactivism doing us a favour?

[lisamuggeridge]

As trans activism mirrors narcissistic abuse pattersn so closely, is it actually doing us a favour?

So with power dynamics, you really have to have a demonstration, a visceral one with an emotional reaction before you can understand and reconstruct your understanding of power dynamics. Is why so many dv suvirvors recognised trans activism as male pattern abuse so early. You cant unlearn those patterns once that has happened, you always recognise them.

With abusive dynamics, particularly parasitic dynamics, the perpetrator has placed their victim as an object in their own identty and accuses them of their own behaviour. DARVO. So all accusations are usually admissions.

We were due to synthesise the institutions around domestic abuse years ago, then austerity happened and we didnt, gender mainstreaming didnt happen, equaliuty duty in equality act was bollocks in face of shitty economics and austerity, and through the acronynm 'terf' we see how many institutions did not have this knowledge and now need it.

Given you cant argue with narcissism and you can only use it to demonstrate for you, are we missing a trick with trans rights activism?

Women did not have the power to demand a conversation about male pattern abuse, systems shaped by it, the way in which womens roles have changed and responsibilities to identify abuse emerged. Trans rights activists did that. Women needed to and they did it.

While it is destructive behaviour to demand a safeguarding conversation, then use it to demonstrate male pattern abusive behaviour, then exclude yourself from the conversation, am I wrong to think this is actually useful demonstration at this point? Especially as we have major institutional redefinition on the cards through Brexit and one of the tasks of this period was always going to be consolidating these duties.

I personally do not believe anythig can stop the backlash now growing and most of the good will that alllowed women to let this happen has gone but is this useful?

No, it’s not IMO.

I think it’s a good weather vane re the Tories and Brexit TBH. I’m pretty convinced that we have had robotic responses from several women and equalities ministers because the Tories want to use GRA reform to abolish discrimination laws based on sex class by the back door. Those would be; sex, sexuality and trans rights.

The fact they paused and allowed it to fall into the long grass because of feminist action is a reasonably positive sign that they expected it to go smoothly and were surprised by the reaction. I don’t think this means much though about whether they will keep pushing for the ultimate aim.

What does this mean for Brexit? Well, that a similar approach will be taken, particularly dismantling worker’s rights and human rights, probably by attempting to portray this as socially liberal and progressive.

The actual TRAs are just pawns in a dynamic that is really between govt and their wealthy backers IMO.

I've seen similar examples; on Reddit when the mask slips, and a bunch of men suddenly realise MRA isn't a fun fight club, its a nasty and deadly serious philosophy that actively harms good relationships between men and women.

Or the Karpman Drama Triangle, you find it easier to spot when you see it being played out in front of you and have that gut reaction where you 'get' it.
So in that sense its 'useful'.

People call out DARVO every time we see it here for the same reason. Talking to the lurkers is the most useful conversation.
Its one reason someone started a thread asking Mumsnet to take the Freedom Programme training. I wonder how productive that will be if the people taking it haven't been in a coercive relationship themselves, and dont think its relevant.

I worry about the backlash. It wont come from GC women - we don't have that much power - but I bet we'll be blamed for it.

The narcissism probably means they don’t see it TBF...

Generally in society if this succeeds I expect that we will end up with weakened laws combined with a backlash re gender from the Christian Right/political conservatives...

Bleak

I am really worried about the backlash. It used to be that I was worried about trans rights, now I dont care. I do think lots of people near power saw this as a quick route to bypass womens rights and I am deeply worried about the scale of the backlash and what it will take out.
You see on that thread yesterday, 'mumsnet' are the reason for the backlash in these peoples heads, not that women recognise and reconstruct their understanding of things when faced with intimidation and abuse. Most of the activists who have targeted me have had major issues with perceiving reality and the limits of their identity and they cant see context that I represent as anything but a threat. The backlash from this is going to come in waves with kids issue providing wave upon wave. I think the ability to prevent that backlash against trans rights was gone months ago, but I think that backlash could carry something really bad that will go for women and lgbt and yes, I think women will be blamed for not only that but the impaft of this on kids.

I do think lots of people near power saw this as a quick route to bypass womens rights

Yes but. As usual, they saw women's lives from their own perspective, and they forgot that you don't get in between a mother tiger and her cubs.
And that's what we need to remember. People don't give a shit about women's rights, but even if they dont have children themselves, most people can be prompted to remember that they were a child once and it could have been them.

I think so. We have never acknowledged the bottom line of political responsibility for male pattern abusive behaviour, and women have occupied the bottom line but politicians know this too. I have never been so convinced that women have to stand up. I think this could all go very badly but women standing up right now could consolidate those rights. We cant have the state punishing women for not acting to deal with abuse and then the state also demanding they accept male pattern abuse in form of activism and removal of protections.

We have had institutionalised sexism via gender on a national basis since Norman times. See Venn diagram, this is the Christian Right view re gender. There has been a transition from founding the gender heirarchy, that allows men control over reproduction, in Christianity and justifying it via ‘God’s plan’ to political conservatism which founds it in the ‘science’ of lady brain and justifies it with ‘science says’...

This political conservatism is the mainstream view, it is particularly held and promoted by those people who are in positions of power. Those in power will use trans rights to further entrench the existing gender heirarchy whilst playing it as ‘kind to trans’ and the backlash will come from the mainstream who also subscribe to the political conservative view and probably the TRAs when they realise it’s not worked for them and the existing system has simply been strengthened.

IMO.

This is my fear...

Anyway, it’s really not doing anybody a favour, apart from the religious/political conservatives TBH...

People generally (but often not) come out of the FOG re male abusive behaviour when it becomes unsustainable to see it as ‘just how men are’ or ‘women’s work’ I doubt this stuff is going to have that effect... probably most people will be shrugging and saying ‘more loony left it’ll never happen’

Yes to all the above. Many things going on at the same time, including but not limited to, extremist transactivism.

The backlash will almost certainly take out transsexual rights and it's looking more and more likely it will take out public standing for the LGB and women's rights too.

We are certainly at a crux point where what is at stake is all the systems that women built and all our rights, and the wider context including Brexit means ANYTHING could happen and this backlash is definitely happening. How have we woken up here? Just how?

We are increasingly in a lobby group situation like the US, our political class is over-educated and under-intelligent, and NOBODY CAN SEE THE BIGGER PICTURE?

(So happy to see a wide-ranging safeguarding discussion happen here.)

The backlash will be directed primarily at GNC women because the gender heirarchy has always been about men controlling reproduction...

Of course it will take out all other GNC people, as it always has and based on their recent behaviour I expect transgender ideologues to find a position which protects them (probably attacking women) whilst transsexual people, LGB and women suffer.

The only thing that might be reasonably good is if we can have a mainstream political conservative backlash during a period when the Tories are worried about losing an election... that might stop them pushing it forward... it won’t stop the resulting crackdown re the gender heirarchy, but that has already been building due to austerity policies IMO.

It does look like the Tories are trying to now kick GRA reform past 2020... so it will be crucial IMO that they don’t win and that labour start thinking seriously about what they are doing... I’m hopeful they have simply been trying to protect the party from another ism row and will buck their ideas up but even if they got in they would have to start from scratch with the thinking as they’d be in govt rather than opposition.

I don't think Labour have much chance of winning any time soon, honestly. Too many people hate Corbyn (and there aren't enough people who love him to make up for that, no matter how noisy they are), their current policies offer nothing but scraps to the working class, and the gender thing is just adding to the mess. Unite and Momentum are never going to be able to cooperate enough to get anything done. So, we're stuck with the Tories for a while, I think. There seem to be a few Tories hellbent on pushing self-ID through, some of whom I think may be true believers. Some will drop it if they see enough public pushback, but I think others like Miller will keep pushing for it because they're too invested to consider the possibility that they may be wrong at this point.

I agree Offred and the speed at which sexualisation of children, demands children have no boundaries, and demands became about children scared the living daylights out of me. Between that and treatment of lesbians, this is not good. I am torn between fear of the backlash and the bigger context and thinking that actually a reflex response for thirty years has been to target women. Reflexes are born of identity and women are now meeting up and down the country to discuss their rights and that could be enough to knock this on the head. Am not as worried by the GRA as others, I thin its been rendered more or less meaningless and as it develops should clarify its position in wider context but that this has gone so far is insane. By the time discussing safeguarding and equality legislation will bring direct threats and intimidation and abuse(and I have never seen anything like this) its time to discuss it.

Labour are polling better than the Tories...

I think the political classes tend to overplay the importance of both policy and leadership, elections are usually lost rather than won IMO.

I’m probably most worried about the GRA TBH lisa as it represents the final step in institutionalising all this stuff. Once it is institutionalised it will be much harder to roll back practice.

I keep seeing DARVO on here, what does it mean?

The fact that the safeguarding of children has already been eroded to the extent that it has worries me, and makes me wonder how many people said all the right things in the wake of the Saville case but didn't believe a word of it.

There's definitely a sense that demands that used to be covert are now utterly overt, and that's worrying in terms of why those people feel so comfortable making those demands and why they have so little concern about how they're coming across. The MRA movement already has a body count, but people still seem to mostly treat it as just a bunch of blokes having a bit of a moan, and articles about incel violence tend to default to the idea that not being provided with a pet women in some sense justifies murderous rage. The implications behind that are both clear and alarming.

Yy AAK, I think because the mainstream view is political conservative re gender. That means people see murderous rage and dead women as ‘the natural order’ re access to sex.

Hanging - dynamic.uoregon.edu/jjf/defineDARVO.html

The whole ‘access to sex’ thing is also so pervasive... what it is really about is controlling reproduction but it takes so much down with it; women obviously, trans people re the ‘tricked’ and snappity’s thing about prosecuting people who don’t front up about ‘known infertility’, lesbians re ‘corrective rape’... it’s all so men can control reproduction.

And who is it promoting ‘access to sex’ stuff now? It’s transgender ideologues... who DARVO GC women by saying we are ‘like incels’... mad