Transgirl in friend's school

[mikado1]

I immediately thought of MN when I heard this story tonight! My friend works in a secondary school (Ireland) and they've had a student identify as trans. He had long hair, now wears it tied up and awards skirt. School v accepting and supportive, parents v demanding, almost looking for school to trip up. Use of girls' toilet was asked for and principal denied access point blank, said if he had a 12yo DD he wouldn't be happy (trans student 17). Unused toilet next to office was offered. Done.

I was impressed by his decisiveness and instinctive rationale, I was beginning to think only MN saw the light. He apparently said he knew he could be sued but took a stand and it was accepted.

That's exactly the solution found for the transboys in DD's school, SarahAr, and was with their full agreement, as I understand it.

I assume you aren't calling them cis-phobic for not wanting to change with natal males?

SarahAr surely this is an example of how people have examined a situation, on a case-by-case basis, and found a good solution?

Rather than transphobia?

Slinging accusations of transphobia around like confetti really is counterproductive.

Please do go on SarahAr. Don’t be shy now.

(I don't know if it's actually possible to sling confetti though...)

Does it help Sarah to not think of it as a threat as such, but just unfair re privacy etc? Would you not have any problem with it fit your young DD or for yourself? And even if you don't, do you not understand why some would? He hasn't been transohobic; this student has been offered every support and protection needed but their rights were not allowed trump the rights of others to sex (not gender) segregated bathrooms. The student was not forced to continue in the boys' bathroom and was satisfied with the third space(not disabled bathroom btw).

Another point is that 12 yo girls need to discuss their periods in the toilet due to the frequent accidents they have where they need help from friends outside the cubicle but within the toilet room, and maybe wash blood form their hands. Give these girls a break and dont humiliate them in front of an older male. Older boys are scary to girls with no older brothers i can tell you.

So true LanceLottie ! Though it took me a minute to think it through!

Good on that principle.

Although I do hope the unused toilet isn't the accessible toilet because that would be unfair on the disabled students who require it.

It's not about transphobia it's about changing with people who have the same body and deserve to have that privacy.

How long would it take before all the teenage boys took the trans route if they could change with the girls.

Someone needs to tell them NO.

I don’t know about anyone else, but I am done with justifying girls need for single sex toilets.

As UNESCO have said in their most recent gender report, “Single sex toilets are desperately needed...to address adolescent girls’ concerns over privacy, particularly during menstruation”

Unless you can show me a significant body of research that shows girls in this country are somehow exempt from these same concerns, it is off the table for doscussion.

LemonJello, a great point that should be restated in every debate over single sex loos.

I went to an all girls school. I have brothers.
As a teen I would not be naked in front of them, and I can still remember feeling so embarrassed at having to shower in front of other girls.
I don't think men have a clue how difficult puberty is for girls, that's why so many don't give a fuck

It’s interesting to see you have not even attempted to justify your framing of girls right to privacy as transphobia SarahAr.

It’s extremely useful to see what arguments you can’t engage with. These are the ones we need to push, here and outwith mumsnet.

And I’m sure when you pop up on another thread there will be someone to remind you of the remarks you’ve made here, and hold you to account for them.

I hated getting changed in front of other girls at school. If I'd have to have changed in front of boys as well I wouldn't have done any sport.

There's also the need for single sex toilets to be built (and maintained) because of the risk of rape.

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2014/aug/28/toilets-india-health-rural-women-safety

An old article I know - still holds true

I find it fascinating how a female asking for her need for privacy in an intimate setting to be respected is immediately labelled transphobic. We're supposed to be "nice", are we?

I'm genuinely afraid for the daughters of some of the women who buy into this shit.

I don't believe that there has been an explosion in the genuine trans population in the world. I do think there is a subset of adult fetishists (mainly male, predictably) who have their own agenda. Their agenda is not woman friendly. Their agenda is not trans friendly. Their agenda is not lesbian friendly. Their agenda is domination. At all costs. They're prepared to sacrifice children, women, and true trans people, in their quest to become powerful.

And they're relying on women to shut the fuck up about it.

This trans child in this school may well be as far away from being a risk to girls as you can be.

But they may not. 17 year olds can be sexual predators, you know. There's a 16 year old boy on a Scottish Island who's awaiting trial, right now, for raping and murdering a 6 year old girl.

Or don't girls have any right to privacy and safety? Are we really there, already?

I hated getting changed in front of other girls at school. If I'd have to have changed in front of boys as well I wouldn't have done any sport.

Me neither, exactly.

As the discussion is about toilets / changing, English schools MUST offer sex segregated toilets and washing facilities for pupils over the age of 8. It's the law. Organisations that tell schools otherwise are wrong.

Guidance here:
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/719398/Gender-separation-guidance.pdf

I don't believe that there has been an explosion in the genuine trans population in the world. I do think there is a subset of adult fetishists (mainly male, predictably) who have their own agenda.

In the UK, a significant source of the increase is girls (although it doesn't seem that way because they make a fraction of the noise):

In 2016/17, 1400 of the referrals were for young people assigned female at birth (AFAB), and 616 for those assigned male at birth. Last year those numbers were 929 and 490. This continues the trend of an increase in AFAB referrals proportionately.

tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/about-us/news/stories/gids-referrals-increase-slows-201617/

The fact that there aren't alarm bells going off all over the shop astonishes me. (I realise that they're "only girls" but even so.)

That's specifically the Tavistock's data on young people (up to 18), isn't it? I suspect the numbers of middle-aged men transitioning vastly outnumber the middle-aged women going the other way.*

*Not counting the possible transing of half the population of MN according to the average online survey.

I suspect the numbers of middle-aged men transitioning vastly outnumber the middle-aged women going the other way.

I would love to see the numbers for this. If they are as you (and I) expect, that would be another WTF moment for the average person on the street.

I don't have any numbers, sorry! I'm not an expert on any of this, just a slightly gobsmacked observer of an explosion of 'trans identity' in my teenagers' schools and colleges, and a further, smaller, tendency for it to be the midlife crisis of choice amongst STEM-based blokes we know.

Does the transgirl have a criminal history of sexual abuse? Do the toilets not have doors on their cubicles?

By this logic-every boy in that school who does not have a criminal history of sexual abuse should be allowed access to the girls toilets.

SarahAr , look we understand the general principle . Any girl who doesn't want to be naked in front of a man or have a man naked in front of her shouldn't have rights.

And this isn't to do with you hoping to be in that position yourself is it...