Why do LBG align with the T?

[Sunflowersforever]

Genuine question.

Having just read the nonsense thread of trans women saying they have periods (unbelievable) can someone explain to me why the gay community have the transgender element tagged onto it?

Can't see how it helps a gay man or lesbian woman's fight for rights and recognition to be lumped in with this utter nonsense. What has sexual orientation got to do with transgender?

Can anyone enlighten me?

I think traditionally the groups have been put together, and come together, because both are outside the 'norm' in terms of gender/sex roles.

Yes, I can see that would give a sense of community.

Just wondered how many lesbian women must be feeling conflicted and let down by, what looks more and more, like a male dominated community.

And how many gay men are that bothered either? I know Owen Jones is vocal, but my meaningless straw poll of two gay male friends indicates they don't!

They are united against far right and religious groups, but not the debate about infringement of women's rights.

I'm a lesbian woman. I'm active in the LGBT+ scene, as well as the fetish scene, in which there are lots of transgender/transsexuals/Cross dressers. I can honestly say it didn't bother me that TS people are here. I've shared bathrooms with them, gone on girls nights out with them. They are lovely, rational people and I don't give their transness a second thought.

I've been hit on twice by trans women. Both times I've said no, and been honest about the fact Im exclusively attracted to 'natal' women. Both have understood and moved on.

I'm also gender critical. I don't agree with everything (some) trans people say. But IRL, I've never encountered any of the more extreme TRA views.

LGBT spaces have always been male dominated. Men have borne the brunt of gay discrimination, and lesbians... I guess just don't go out as much.

Gender/sex is undergoing a huge transformation. Nobody quite agrees on what terms to use, etc. The best we can do is be inclusive and respectful, IMO.

Some gay men are bothered and recognise the inherent misogyny and homophobia in much of the gender ideology.

In my experience though gay men care about women's rights at about the same rate as straight men e.g a proportion do but most are indifferent and some actively dislike women.

It doesn't surprise me much that push come to shove many gay/bi men will side with the self declared TW over lesbians.

I've been called discriminatory because I wouldn't date a transwoman.

I don't agree with LGBT. Trans people are of all sexualities. I wish there was one movement and all that comes with it, for trans rights and communities and one for gay/bi.

Simple answer, I have no idea.
I stay away from any LGBT bollocks nowadays because I know exactly what it’ll be. It’ll either be all gay men and no lesbians and I’ll be ignored, or the super woke transwomen are women crowd Who want to make everything about everybody, except lesbians.
I’m so glad I’m in a LTR, because if I wasn’t I don’t know where I’d meet other lesbians.
Also I’d be a bit nervous about attending any groups or events. I’ve outed myself as gender critical and I’d be worried about getting hassle.

Thank you @Dommina for your explanation. Very helpful. In my ignorance, it never occurred to me about trans women and how they are perceived sexually by other women.

Can I also ask, what is LRT?

Sorry, LTR

Oh, it's long term relationship

L should definitely disassociate from B and G as well as T. So stupid to even think they should be lumped together.

@FrancinePefko42

Can I ask why they should be separated?

There's a general suspicion that once Section 28 was gone & gay marriage had happened, Stonewall needed a new reason for existence & the T was it.

Lesbians were redefined in the process.

I think gay man are often just as misogonistic as straight men, sometimes more and they often don't particularly care about women or lesbian rights tbh. Interestingly lots of gay men I know have displayed a massive amount of homophobia against lesbians. Maybe because they feel lesbians have always had it easier? Although I disagree.

I think originally it was because they both don't follow your traditional gender stereotypes. I also think that often 'T' enjoy being an 'other', and LGB are obviously a prominent 'other' catagory. I think that's a huge part of why some people because Trans, the men I know who have transitioned have all been people who perhaps weren't as popular at school and like to be part of an opressed group to explain why people didn't like them as much. So I think joining the LGB movement adds to that for those people.

I think it's been together so long now, that when gay and lesbian people hear views opposing TRAs they see that as against them, as homophobia, and it can take a lot for them to change their mind. In some cases, as gay men won't be affected by a lot of it because they are men they will never change their mind because they don't particularly care about misogyny or women's rights in the same way lots of straight men don't.

November 2016 Miranda Yardley comment:
'Ma Vie En Rose: Ruth Hunt’s Rose-Tinted Trans*Goggles and the anti-Woman Politics of Stonewall'
(extract)
"I first spoke with Stonewall’s Ruth Hunt just over three years ago when the organisation announced it would be engaging with the transgender community. This resulted in the forming of the Stonewall Trans Advisory Group, you know that motley crew of transgender tyrants, including the self-styled (styled as if it were 1973) answer for any heterosexual woman who wishes to bring out her ‘inner lesbian’, Alex ‘Beardy’ Drummond. cheeky wink

Ruth, bless her fighting heart, has been defending transgender activists to an extraordinary degree, indeed there appears to be no transgression she cannot overlook with her inbuilt sense of forgiveness which seems divine in breadth and depth. She has embraced the very dogma that makes real life discussion, debate and compromise with transgenderists impossible, dogma which positions the interests of the T in ‘LGBT’ in opposition to anyone who considers biological sex to be important in any material way: trans women are women, no debate, end of.

Quite aside from it being cruel to humour delusional claims of one being something one is not, positioning one’s acceptance of an individual on a lie is outright dishonest. And anyway, what is a lesbian and gay group doing when it considers the thoughts and feelings of personal identity more important than the reality of our sexed bodies?" (continues)

mirandayardley.com/en/ma-vie-en-rose-ruth-hunts-rose-tinted-transgoggles-and-the-anti-woman-politics-of-stonewall/

Can I ask why they should be separated?
To me it just seems like an arbitrary bundling of groups that have very different needs and motivations. Having them artificially aggregated into a single "movement" creates more opportunity for conflict and rivalry than support.

I heard Sheila Jefferey speak about this issue as related to the Yogyakarta Principles.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3228002-Yogyakarta-principles

To paraphrase because gay men in other countries often present in a very feminine manner (think of the Hijra in India) bundling trans rights into a platform with gay rights protects gay men in these cultures - even though in many cases these rights conflict with women and lesbian rights.

Check out this video for more info, also featuring the indomitable Lisa Muggeridge, Nicole Jones and Magdalen Berns

www.facebook.com/DRradfem/videos/2157764721109127/?q=we%20need%20to%20talk&filters_interacted_posts=%7B%22name%22%3A%22interacted_posts%22%2C%22args%22%3A%22%22%7D

Also, I would say - follow the money. I imagine there is a hell of a lot of money to be made selling lesbian sex toys for to middle aged IT consultants called Steve. Who has more money? 86% of austerity cuts have fallen on women.

I have noticed a huge amount of misogynist within the gay community. Just look into the Hampstead Ponds debacle for starters. It appears to be something no one wants to address.

Recently had an argument with a gay friend who was criticizing the lesbian protest at Pride. He told me I shouldn't speak on "queer issues". I asked him what the fuck trans has to do with him? If a trans woman is a woman who is attracted to men then "she" is heterosexual. Nothing queer about it.

There is a deliberate conflation of sex, gender and sexual orientation and I stand by the fact that there is more to all of this and it is fucking sinister.

I had a similar argument with a gay mate after Pride when I saw him use the terf word. I was so disappointed because he's lovely and I know he's not a raving misogynist or radical or anything. His argument was - gay men are much worse than trans folk - why single them out for rebuke? Go after gay men!

Agree that bundling them all together is bizarre. I was involved in a lesbian group in the early 90s in NE England. At that time lesbians very much kept to themselves and although lesbians went to gay clubs they often had different nights to the men or didn't socialise with the men. Trans was a very very minority thing then and definitely wasn't part of the lesbian scene. Trying to bunch everyone together seems very right wing to me in a sort of "they're all perverts let's class them all together" sort of way, or a "there are normal heterosexuals and then everyone else" definition. Some male homosexuals I know are pleasant blokes who get on fine with women, others have seemed to enjoy mocking women and female anatomy and would have zilch in common with any women especially lesbians.

I think the "bundling" was really accelerated by well-meaning employers wanting to demonstrate their "right on" credentials. It never made any sense to me.

I think there is an attempt by 'queers' to conflate kink with sexuality - hence the alphabet soup! I am a long time fan of the Savage Love Cast which is an agony Aunt show for the LGBT/ kink community. Before I got switched on to queer politics I did notice that many callers had started calling themselves 'queer' - despite being in heterosexual relationships. It drove me insane! It was great getting more political and realizing I was not alone in my frustration.

Being gay does not mean being kinky. I stopped coming out as bi because, as a woman, it just invites over-sexualisation. The LBG fought for many years to say - we're not kinkster's - we just fall in love with members of the same sex! This sets back that project. Being kinky is fine (we're all kinsters really) It's not G A Y though....

How is aromatic a sexuality?

@DJLippy Not sure if you're already aware (and that's what you're referencing in your post) but there are actual attempts being made to add "kink" to the LGBT lineup too...

Agree with pp below who said lumping in a bunch of disparate issues with LGB creates a hugely uneasy sense of "normals" and "everything else".

Big pharm saw a huge business opportunity to commercialise distress to their advantage. They found a stalking horse and fiundef all the LGBT associations plus medical research with contracts that have t&cs biased to promoting trans.

Psychopaths always target poorly law enforced jurisdictions / or create new ones that are beyond the law or weakly legislated for - they know how to stay beyond the law

lumping in a bunch of disparate issues with LGB creates a hugely uneasy sense of "normals" and "everything else"

It's the equivalent of say for example the Church of England creating a catch-all grouping for every other religion and giving them a group abbreviation based in their initials... "Oh this person represents the JAMBASH* community. We need to listen to their needs and support their march. Right on"

*Jewish, Atheist, Muslim, Buddhist, Agnostic, Sikh, Hindu..

Oops I wonder why they can't all just play nicely and agree on EVERYTHING...

Not sure if you're already aware (and that's what you're referencing in your post) but there are actual attempts being made to add "kink" to the LGBT lineup too...

I have been wondering how the increasingly used umbrella term 'Queer' may obfuscate as well as creating a very powerful group identity.

Lyla Cicero comment:
'What Do All Those Letters Mean, Anyway? Defining LGBTQIAPK'
People often ask me “what do all those letters stand for, anyway?” I’m not quite sure why they ask me, since most don’t know I belong in that alphabet soup somewhere. But they ask, and I’m glad, because I think they should know. However, there is a part of me that’s annoyed by the question, and thinks, “come on, people, keep up, it’s not rocket science.” Of course, there are those who don’t know “what all those letters stand for” because they don’t want to, due to ignorance or hatred. But there are also well-meaning allies who are having a hard time keeping up. Hell, there are a whole bunch of folks who fit within that list of letters, or a longer one we haven’t come up with yet, who don’t even know it. It is confusing. It should be. That list of letters keeps growing and growing because the variations in human sexuality and gender identity are infinite. We probably need the whole alphabet to cover them.

I have this fantasy that one day when there are more of us who fit under the “queer” umbrella than don’t, it will finally be clear that we are all “sexual minorities.”

This is not at all to diminish the experience of people who have to live, openly or not, as sexual minorities in our culture right now. But perhaps the reason they are in the “minority” is because of how many others are still closeted in various ways. How many people must be out there who have never spent much time considering their sexual orientations or gender identities due to compulsory heterosexuality, compulsory gender-normativity, and/or compulsory sexual vanilla-ism in our culture? And how many simply don’t fit labels our culture has yet produced?" (continues)

www.rolereboot.org/sex-and-relationships/details/2012-06-what-do-all-those-letters-mean-anyway-defining-lgbtq