Transactivism and possible religious backlash

[TheMythicalChicken]

I have been thinking about this a lot lately. I worked for a long time in a Muslim company (fully Sharia-compliant, etc). Therefore although not a Muslim myself, I understand the requirements and the challenges of the religion, especially for 'covered' women.

Our restrooms were a haven where women would go, use the facilities, take their burkhas off, etc. The religion requires a certain amount of disrobing before using the toilet and also afterwards women would use the shared facilities to put themselves back together, adjust their headscarves, etc.

Also for prayers, women would use the facilities to do their ablutions, which also required a certain amount of disrobing.

I can't help wondering how these women, their husbands, elders, etc. are going to feel about heterosexual men with penises being allowed in these previously women-only spaces.

I also wonder how this will affect Muslim (and other religion) girls who may not be able to use changing rooms, go on residential school trips, etc. where boys may be present in these previously girls-only spaces.

And I wonder when these religious groups will become aware of how the GRA changes will affect them and if they will do anything about it.

Has anybody else been wondering the same?

According to some who spout on speak a great deal about the need for us to adopt self ID, people with religious or culturally based rules about sex segregation would benefit from "re-educating".
Whatever your view, I'm sure most people would agree that anything that may create more barriers to participation in society for certain groups of women, when some are already very underrepresented, would not be great.
It's an example of why potentially far-reaching measures - such as redefining 'woman' - need to be properly considered and evaluated for the knock-on consequences. I don't think the wants of one group should straight off trump the values of another, whether you think that is the progressive thing to do or not.

I also wonder how this will affect Muslim (and other religion) girls who may not be able to use changing rooms, go on residential school trips, etc. where boys may be present in these previously girls-only spaces.

If you are interested then study how it is handled in Iran. I had a long conversation with two Iranian trans women some years ago and my understanding is that after surgery trans women are regarded as women but I am not an expert.

Yes snappity I believe Iran has a track record of 'getting rid' of homosexual men (Mahmoud Ahmadinejad famously said that there weren't any gays in Iran) with surgery. I wouldn't take Iran as a shining beacon of anything progressive on sexual matters.

Snappity, I have many Iranian friends and you are correct on that. However, we are not talking about post-surgery transsexuals, we are talking about heterosexual men with penises.

Yes snappity I believe Iran has a track record of 'getting rid' of homosexual men (Mahmoud Ahmadinejad famously said that there weren't any gays in Iran) with surgery. I wouldn't take Iran as a shining beacon of anything progressive on sexual matters.

I totally agree 100%, but the OP was asking about trans women in the context of religion and I maintain that Iran is an important point of reference for the OP's specific question

I maintain that Iran is an important point of reference for the OP's specific question Except it isn't as the transwomen you refer to WILL have had surgery, thus removing the 'rape kit'. Here that will not be the case... if it were I have no doubt that this thread, and all others like it, would never have occurred.

Hint When you complain about others comparing apples and oranges it really helps if you don't then do so yourself!

Religions are not allowed to manifest their attitudes towards homosexuality during any oart of the provisions of goods and services,

It will be the same over this issue. They will need to provide services in line with the law. This aspect has already been fought, and religious organisations 'lost'

What I’d like to see happen:

Religious communities speaking up that this is unacceptable and lending their voices to efforts to retain safe spaces for women and children and to allow women of faith to participate fully in public life.

What I think will probably happen:

Women will just disappear from the public sphere, quietly. And we will end up more ghettoised and divided than before.

Women will just disappear from the public sphere, quietly. And we will end up more ghettoised and divided than before.

Sadly, I agree this may well be the case. Hardly a great outcome for advancing women's rights and equality.

So what should we do?

It is a bit frustrating to see Iran brought up every time. It has no relevance in the UK, and no relevance to UK Muslims who are Sunni in their large majority. Personality I have never met any Muslim who believes people can 'change sex', and I do believe women will retreat from public life. I think Muslim women will have to start using spaces that are dedicated to them specifically, ie. swimming sessions set up by Muslim groups, rather than general women-only sessions. It is a shame, but I doubt Muslims will speak out publicly on this issue, we are marginalized enough as it is. But privately women are very worried. I am already wary of using unisex toilets because of the prevalence of cameras and all that :-(.

I feel the real backlash will come when male-bodied people start competing in widely televised women's sports. The only reason there hasn't been more of a reaction to Laurel Hubbard or Fallon Fox is that people don't know about it. When you tell them, they tend to be incredulous. Very few people support the likes of Hubbard 'bravely being their authentic selves' if it means ruining women's sports.

think Muslim women will have to start using spaces that are dedicated to them specifically, ie. swimming sessions set up by Muslim groups, rather than general women-only sessions.

I agree - and I think that’s a terrible shame and will be bad for community cohesion :(

Making female spaces unisex has so many negative impacts.

MoggyP
But if religious groups are not able to assert their views to wards homophobia (which I agree with, and is btw completely different) why should gender ideologists be able to assert their views onto women, and force women of certain religions out of public life?
LM has expressed his opinion that if religious women have a problem with fully male bodied people in the women's space, they meet to create their own space, which is discrimination on the grounds of religion.

It's another complete conflict of rights.

*need to create

Gncq
You beat me to it.

Muslim women will have to start using spaces that are dedicated to them specifically

That won't work because its not just Muslim women who are affected. Its also Orthodox Jewish, Sikh and Romany women.
And men who cannot mingle with women, either at certain times of the year, or in certain situations.

I also don't think it counts as a backlash if people are standing up for their existing rights.
We pretty much have a 'live and let live' attitude towards religion in this country, its worked fairly well up til now.

As for Iran; gay men and lesbian women are forced to transition or face the death penalty. It's not a bastion of human rights, its blatant homophobia and we should not support it.

The Hampstead Pond issue has made me realise how much females will always come second, no matter how 'advanced' we think we are. If there is a conflict of rights, men will always win. Having three separate ponds seemed to cater to everyone, despite the women's pond being targeted by voyeurs. Now we have a situation where some males can access all three ponds, some women none, which is particularly shocking considering there is a practicing Jewish community in Hampstead and these women are now unable to use the pond. Many non-religious women are also apparently pushed away by the behaviour going on in the women's pond, but it is all fine as this is 'progress'. Primogeniture is another telling example: transmen are men until they disturb the patriarchal order.

I've been wondering about this. It seemed strange that in past years, any discussion of certain topics, such as immigration, was met with cries of "Islamophobia" (when the link was rather tenuous in that it was not clear how certain policies would detrimentally affect settled British Muslim communities), yet when something comes along that does directly affect the day to day lives of Muslim women and children in Britain, there's utter silence.

Then I realised the majority of "islamophobia" claims were not made by the Muslim community in the first place, were they? That term was just used as a silencer back then to any one who questioned certain policies, just as "transphobia" is now used to silence dissent on gender issues. And when you look at who was yelling "islamophobia", there's a noticeable similarity between them and those crying "transphobia" now.

Basically, they are both modern versions of declaring someone a "heretic" with the added bonus of also accusing said heretic of malevolent intent.

So, of course, there's silence over the impact of transgender policies on Muslim women and children. It serves no political purpose for there to be so. But if any policy actually was hideously detrimental to the Muslim female community at large, it is self id and I don't think you can ignore that.

I am not familiar with the social and cultural understandings of British Pakistani and Bangladeshi heritage communities, but I do have insight into Muslim Arab concerns around male bodies in female space.

Over the last ten to twenty years, as the wearing of the niqab became more prevalent, there's been some scandal/fear in a number of countries in the ME that males were using such clothes to enter women's spaces undetected.

Now it's unclear how much of this was/is urban legend, but I do know there were problems in Saudi Arabia at one point (though that was more about young men trying to check out young women in cafe areas). And I do know there were some strong fears in Lebanon where there was a consistent story about a male sex offender using such women's clothing to access female toilets.

So it's not as though these types of fears are specific to a Western context.

Surely if some groups create new women's only spaces those spaces would still be forced to accept TW What would be the difference between the new spaces and the existing ones. Other than they would descimimate on relegious grounds

I feel the real backlash will come when male-bodied people start competing in widely televised women's sports.

I don't. I think the backlash will come when large numbers of medically transed children start de-transitioning in later life and bring medical negligence claims.

The key is to be able to work with people you don't agree with 100% with trans rights activists who believe souls jump into the wrong body, with women who believe in undertaking rituals, with the DM and so forth, or you are lone voices and you will lose the fight.

I watched a YouTube video a couple of years back in which an American "convert" to Islam in a burqa whinged about how appalling it was that the elders at the mosque wanted information about the YouTuber's genital status after women had expressed anxiety and distress over what they perceived as a man accessing women's spaces - which would have significant impact on those women.

Said YouTuber was highly indignant at being questioned and had told the elders things that weren't true. When called on those lies, their reaction was utterly teenage - how very dare they check up on me/demand a doctor's letter. But the mosque stood firm.

I put "convert" in quotes because it seemed pretty clear that the idea of strict sex segregation and the validation this provided was a key motivation, plus this person's complete lack of respect for either the women involved or the mosque elders is entirely the opposite of what you'd expect from a genuine convert.

The video appears to have gone now, perhaps because its creator realised that they really didn't come over well.