Attitudes and use of words, possibly an AIBU

[fedupandwornout]

NC for this as I think DH will look it up to see what is said. Apologies it is long, but don't want to drip feed.

Provoked by a news snippet on a homepage saying that Henry Cavill (actor, Superman) is now sorry for 'any confusion' about his arsehole and making it all about me comments re#metoo where he feared he would be seen as a rapist for pursuing and wooing a woman (er, only of you do rape them, or consider that 'no does not mean no', but means 'yes, later if you keep on at me'), DH and me have just had a proper row about attitudes and word meanings.

He started off agreeing that HC's comments were shit but then somehow started saying stuff about how men, teenage boys/young men really, are confused about whether they are expected to prove themselves by asking a girl out repeatedly and having 'play the game' because girls are worried about being seen as 'easy', or whether no does mean 'I don't like you'.

I tried saying that how men interpret this, assume or tell each other is the part of the problem, and that it wasn't really like that or as simple as that, because girls do have to think both about being labelled as 'easy',and worry about getting pregnant, neither of which boys have to worry about, as well as worry about getting their feelings hurt, plus the fact that boys/men do often lie about their feelings just to get a girl into bed or just to have someone, anyone to snog.

Cue arguing, where he for some reason tried to defend all maner of shit things.

He then started to say if "I had been snubbed by a girl.." to which I said, "do you mean snubbed as in treated rudely, or just saying 'no she did not want to go out with you", to which he says they are the same thing. Clearly (at least to me) they aren't the same. One implies something 'bad'; an amount of rudeness/disdain/ lack of respect, and the other is neutral, not leading the listender to assume there was a particular tone or manner; polite or rude, and this reminded me of the way I think we often see men (and yes, some women too) using personalising words like this and confusing or replacing/ projecting the action of being rejected ie saying no/ declining, with feeling rejected.

He says that most people use 'snubbed' as common usage for being rejected (I said they shouldn't unless they mean treated rudely or with disdain or some other negative connotation) otherwise it confuses people. I even looked up the word snubbed on the online dictionary. Turns out he can even argue about the meaning of the words abrupt and rebuffed! I admit I like to use words correctly but I am not pedantic I thnk, just like clarity and to understand exactly what is meant.

But this is the thing isn't; the unconscious usage of personalising, negative emotional words, of rejected entitlement; where a polite or kind 'No' may become spurned or snubbed, consciously or unconsciously.

I must add that I didn't know DH as a young man and find it hard to square the attitudes he was displaying this morning with the person I know, as he has never appeared to be that way to me. But then I am quite transparent/ straightforward I think. I genuinely think (hope) he does not agree with fit with the other meaning, as he has a problem understanding some word type concepts and has real trouble with understanding human behaviour in perhaps an aspergers type way, and he has just adopted what other men say - but then to what extent does this reveal inner entitlement? Maybe in him, but certainly in others. What rule of misogyny is it where men hate women saying No?

But is it that so many men are genuinely just confused and have no bloody clue what they are doing or why? How emotionally illiterate are they? Very has been my experience, and it isn't all hate-based, but definitely ignorance or what they are taught based by the conscious misogynist aresholes putting their misogynisitc spin on events.

I think my arguments have blown a hole in his mind as he did go very quiet and not angry after a while, and after I did definitely snub him by making a cup of tea only for myself, he sat thinking for a while quietly and has now gone to another room, not raging though.

And I have come here for some reasoned and intellectual thought. And a feminist AIBU perhaps rather than a general one!!! Gah, what a ridiculous and upsetting morning. :( Thank you to anyone who has read this!

I’ve had similar conversations with Male family members and friends. Almost all of them have been unable to see past it as criticism of them as an individual to see it as criticism of society and men as a class.

You see the same thing on here with male posters - NAMALT, I’m a nice guy, etc etc.

Funnily enough there was a post recently on AIBU by a woman talking about the racism her and her family experience day to day and I noticed a fair few of the regular names on here saying things along the lines of ‘yes I bet it is an issue and I bet I don’t see it through the same eyes because I’m white so I will listen to you and hear what you’re saying.’

If only we got a similar response from men.

Thank you for reading and replying Bowlofbabelfish :)

Yes, it does seem difficult to get men to see things through other people's eyes for a change.

I always thought Henry Cavill was off limits to women, who knew he liked women is my first thought.

In my experience is many men seem to view themselves as superior to women, many buy into chivalrous behaviour and get upset when women don't want to play the part. If you are straightforward you may have ended up in a relaxing relationship where your partner doesn't have to play the chivalry role.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-44819116

I always felt guilty for finding HC attractive because I thought he was gay.

Now I am conflicted, is he choosing poor words?

He wouldn't go near me anyway, so what does it matter?

He can have an opinion.

HC reportedly said this:

“There’s something wonderful about a man chasing a woman,” Cavill said. “There’s a traditional approach to that, which is nice. I think a woman should be wooed and chased, but maybe I’m old-fashioned for thinking that. It’s very difficult to do that if there are certain rules in place.”

Cavill continued by saying there’s a risk about #MeToo leading men to believe, “Well, I don’t want to go up and talk to her, because I’m going to be called a rapist or something.”

“So you’re like, ‘Forget it, I’m going to call an ex-girlfriend instead, and then just go back to a relationship, which never really worked,’” Cavill continued. “But it’s way safer than casting myself into the fires of hell because I’m someone in the public eye, and if I go and flirt with someone, then who knows what’s going to happen?”

Cavill said that men “really can’t pursue someone” in the era of #MeToo era after they have been told “no.” “But then there’s the, ‘Oh why’d you give up?’” he said. “And it’s like, ‘Well, because I didn’t want to go to jail?’

HC can't seem to understand the difference between asking someone out, and then asking them out again because you still really like them, stalking them, co-ercing them, when No means No, and raping someone.

He comes across as really very stupid. Worryingly so.

"casting myself into the fires of hell" if he flirts. And he thinks a woman should be wooed and chased - does it matter if she does not agree? I am sad that so many youngish men are so illiterate (and hyperbolic) about this still.

NC for this as I think DH will look it up to see what is said

I think your problem is bigger than the one you are posting about

Well yes Henry, if your choice was between giving up and raping her, then yes, I think it's right to give up.

If the #metoo campaign has achieved nothing else, at least we've managed that. Truly this is a glorious Renaissance. (As in, he belongs in the 16th century.)

It’s very difficult to do that if there are certain rules in place.

Poor wee lamb, is the idea that women are people and don't like being harassed interfering with his fantasy relationship storyline? Diddums.

And OP, I'd be very concerned if my DH was uncritically repeating stuff like this, especially if pointing out what harmful nonsense it is provoked a tantrum. The fact that you seem to be worried about him finding out that you still think he's wrong is even more worrying.

I have had those discussions with sons and grandsons. Don't believe what the movies and TV show and tell you about what women want or like. It is all lies and will get you a visit from the police if you stalk girls and harass them the way the men and boys in the stories do.
Zombie lies never die because men never stop telling them to one another.

Don't believe what the movies and TV show and tell you about what women want or like. It is all lies and will get you a visit from the police if you stalk girls and harass them the way the men and boys in the stories do.

There do need to be more films showing that reality - and both ways round, as increasingly in more recent films (especially comedies, e.g. Bridesmaids) there are female characters doing the same to men.

Yes, I have had men buying into the idea that women enjoy the heartfelt standing outside windows singing and making grand gestures. It's about not respecting boundaries.

Strangely my normally sensible DH had a conversation with me recently about how difficult it is for men, how do they know if they are on the right side of the law and it is so easy to be accused of rape after the fact

It was in the context of the Ulster Rugby rape trial. He got fairly short shrift when I asked him had there ever been an occasion in his life where he was genuinely confused if the woman he was having sex with hadn't been completely and utterly enjoying herself. No. I thought not. It's not difficult.

Thank you all.

And thank you for your concern. I only really meant NC to compartmentalise as I thought he might look to see who WBU, but he hasn't.

He was talking specifically about how he felt as a 16-19 year old it turns out (a long time ago), so I guess being confused about how to navigate things then makes sense, and why it doesn't sound like him now. He is generally depressed at the moment so hopefully that explains the tantrum. He calmed down and apologised for losing it and being an arse. His younger years were not happy so no good memories.

I especially agree with thebewilderness about the need to talk to young men to make sure they don't get strange ideas in their heads, and that they know to ignore messages in films etc.

Bit worrying though that some men don't think they can just ask us what we think and want (and listen to the answer), but would rather make assumptions or listen it other blokes. Hopefully that is different for younger generations.

It does worry me that he has the language of turning down = snubbing, but at least he doesn't seem to think it = bad. But he has got the language from somewhere, and maybe others feel resentment at being told no.

From my point of view, I have found it necessary to be cautious re men, because as well as the usual factors, I have had some shocking lies told to me to to make them seem more attaractive and compatible. From lies about liking hobbies/ music I like when it turns out that they didn't, to worse. (It didn't work in my favour that I was new to the area so everyone was new to me)

But if slowly getting to know the real person is equated in some men's minds with them needing to chase and win at all costs then that is a recipe for disaster :(

I am prettly sure the old way used to be to ask permission to woo a lady. So then there was the opportunity too say no before you get the grand gestures/ stalking, relentless wooing.

And really if some men do worry about women claiming rape or are somehow confused about it all, then as well as actually not raping women, then maybe they should rethink their strategy of putting pressure on women to sleep with them ASAP or randomly sleep with strangers and drunk women.

Thank you for all your thoughts