What does the transgender community make of 1980s androgenous pop stars?

[pearlkent]

I am genuinely interested in their take on this subject, as I don't understand why they can't just let people be, and they don't seem to have any concept of how things were in the recent past.

I came of age in the early 1980s, and look back fondly on those times. Pop stars (male and female) wore make-up and "gender non-conforming" clothes. No-one batted an eyelid. Some were gay, some bisexual and some heterosexual. It never seemed to be an issue. We all knew which were male and which were female - misgendering was not a crime back then.
What went wrong?

Examples: Boy George, Marliyn, Marc Almond, Annie Lennox, Prince, Adam Ant, Spandau Ballet, Duran Duran, Pete Burns, etc etc.

Even "feminine" women like Bananarama wore "butch" (ie. jeans and DMs) clothes. It wasn't remarkable.

Today's transgender community seem so narrow-minded. It scares the fuck out of me.

They would consider retrospective transitioning.

pearlkent I so agree and would be fascinated to know... it is my era too, and it felt so sane ... and fun!

We've definitely regressed as a society - clothes, toys, etc are all more gendered and we are worse off as a result.

YES. I've been thinking about this! The artists you listed above - and others (for exs Thompson Twins, Aimee Mann of 'Til Tuesday, Debora Iyall of Romeo Void) - were so important as role models for my gender non-conformity.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=PGNiXGX2nLU

For your viewing pleasure

And yes, I was thinking this the other day. We all were just who we were. No need to hijack someone else.

It was the 80's and also my era, Never gave their gender much thought and took them as they were. A lot of musicians back then had their own unique look and wore make up it didn't really mean anything other than them just expressing their look. I have to agree with eurochick we have regressed and we do seem more gendered nowadays or maybe I'm just being nostalgic

As I lived through that era as an already transitioned transsexual I saw them exactly as they were - sometimes gay, sometimes experimenting in expression of identity, sometimes just having fun.

They were almost never (possibly never) transsexuals. Which is not to do with make up, clothes or expression.

But I do see considerable similarity with many elements of the modern transgender umbrella.

And this worries me - amongst all the other things that worry me - about the mad rush to make it self ID.

Because in the 80s those were often phases and many of them grew out of it.

That was easier when you were having fun and just playing a role and it was about fashion and art.

Darn sight harder though if you have changed your entire life without talking to anyone as to whether it might be the right thing to do and/or medicated yourself on line with 'hormones' imported from some dodgy lab in the far east and start to realise you might make a bit of a mistake and really need to switch back.

So go to the NHS and discover that they tell you there is a 27 year waiting list and the only clinic is on the Isle of Skye because you transgender people told us this was not a medical condition and you absolutely did not ever need to see a doctor or a psychiatrist.

So they all moved to America. You can always emigrate.

That was my formative time too! Even the straight boys were trowelling on the make-up, it was great fun. And very hard to tell who was gay or straight or whatever - there was a bit of mystery about it as well as playfulness and creativity.

Haha maybe it is an age thing after all!

I too was a teen/twentysomething in the 80s, and I remember it as a time of fun and experimentation where we could all just express ourselves however we pleased and people just accepted us as other people if that makes sense.

I'd love to see that freedom allowed to youngsters today but it seems that they are the keenest to be labelled and put in rigid boxes, it's very sad.

I kissed girls. I dated transvestites (can I even still call them that?). I had a great time. I suppose these days that would make me one of those inexplicable letters that now come after LGBT but I wasn't, I was just me.

I don't think there are many Trans people left on MN , they , and many of us Lesbians have walked , I am only on here as my G/F is working nights

but remember talking to older lesbians in my teens , they all loved Cliff Richard (they thought he really was a woman )
and I get it because me and my them girlfriend at school loved David Cassidy ( we thought he really was a girl )

but loads of gay men drew inspiration from David Bowie , and Marc Bolan , am old enough to have been part of GayLib/CHE at University
when only one or two of us Lesbians were Out

I was little, I remember.

It wasn’t just the new wave and new romantic artists of the 80s though.

In the 70s pretty much every rock band featured men with long hair, makeup, spray-on catsuits and more glitter than you could shake a stick at.

There was never any doubt that they were men, though.

I turned 14 in 1980 and was well aware I was trans by then although I didn't have a word for it. By then I'd been made aware preteen by parents, teachers and peers that feeling like I was a girl, being treated like a girl and wanting to look like one was wrong and dangerous. I kept my feelings to myself and simply dressed like a young girl and went out in secret as often as possible.
I'd also by then stopped kneeling at my bedside and praying I'd wake up a girl, but going through the early stages of puberty then crushed me and there wasn't anyone to tell.
It's a shame the support network, information and increased acceptance experienced today wasn't around then.
Seeing those popstars on telly, especially Boy George did provide some solace that there were people out there being different.
Being trans isn't about high heels and dresses. Hell most of those I know who are transitioning now or have done so in the last few years dress most of the time like any female ie trousers, jeans, leggings, flats, trainers etc
Sorry I could ramble on for ages, giving some of you a laugh, no doubt inducing a roll eye and a tut but posting via mobile is horrible.

poula i dont think anyone is denying your experience, you truly wanting to be a girl is who you are. That is absolutely ok. Be you.

The concern we are expressing is that loads of us were gender bending, it was fashion and art to us, not a deep visceral desire to change sex or gender. in the 80s this was seen as ok, normal, fashionable. Boys wore makeup, girls wore dungarees and short hair or not. Or all of the above. All fluid and all just experimenting with our ‚look‘.

But nowadays, a boy wears makeup or a dress and the narrative is that he is deep down somehow a girl. He should be encouraged to transition, to change himself. That who he is, right now is not good enough. And that’s sad, because we can see that loads of us were not like you, we didn’t want to transition, we just wanted to wear what ever the hell we wanted. Hell, i used to go out in men’s evening dress complete with bow tie, army boots and crimped pink punk hair. (Am female btw) And we are concerned that people like us will get caught in this crazy narrative. They will be damaged by it, as will the those who do actually want to change. You’ll just get swamped. And not get the help and resources you need.

No one benefits

Another 80s teenager here, nodding vigorously in agreement.

Some of Steve Strange's make up was absolutely sublime, a work of art.

there was a bit of mystery about it as well as playfulness and creativity.

Where has the creativity gone? Or is it just that much harder to find now?

I'd love to see that freedom allowed to youngsters today but it seems that they are the keenest to be labelled and put in rigid boxes, it's very sad.

This is one of the things I don't understand, why does everything have to have a label?

I suppose these days that would make me one of those inexplicable letters that now come after LGBT but I wasn't, I was just me.

Me too. Maybe I was too young and naive, but life seemed more innocent then.

Did the Cold War, the Falklands conflict, the IRA bombs, nuclear proliferation and the emergence of AIDS make us far more determined to enjoy ourselves? (I don't know the answer to that, and it's a deep thought for this time of night)

In the 80s, trans people were oppressed but nobody told them what a trans person had to be.

But read Mumsnet. The expectations on trans women are now sky high. A birth certificate is becoming essential otherwise they risk being told that they have no legal rights. Driving licence used to be enough - not any more. Next they can't keep their penis. If a penis is seen in a women's space, they are told they will be made to leave and might face prosecution. So SRS, whether someone wants it or not, is now essential if a trans woman wants to have a normal life. But increasingly even that isn't enough. Now trans women are being told that even looking male is triggering so more and more are having facial feministion surgery. But read the India Willoughby thread, who says she had FFS because she was being trolled, she is now being told her hairline gives her away. So what next? Is she going to be forced to have a brow advance or hair transplants just to use the loo without fear of harassment?

Breasts. If a trans woman's frame isn't classically feminine her choices are revealing clothes to show her cleavage or, if her breasts are small, considerable pressure to get breast implants. All so she can try on clothes in M&S without worrying the whole time if a feminist is going to kick up a fuss about a "man" being in there.

What's next? Many trans women spend hours in speech therapy but fof some it isn't enough. Are they going to be forced into risky vocal surgeries if they want to use their local gym without being told they can't change in the ladies "because they are a man" - despite boobs, a vagina and female ID?

The 80s weren't like that. Trans people were oppressed but to use a female space all they needed to as a "walkabout letter" from a doctor saying they were receiving treatment for a gender identity disorder. Access to single sex spaces is now probably harder for trans women than at any time in over a generation.

So increasingly trans people are being faced with a choice - dress only at home and in specialist clubs, or jump through an ever-more demanding set of hoops if they want to go out and about. Just being casual is no longer so much of an option. Even Pride is no longer a safe space, free from anti-trans moans.

What is shocking is that the most vocal group forcing trans women to ever greater lengths if they want a normal life, is feminists. Feminism has always been that it should not matter how a woman looks or dresses. Gender critical feminism claims that in spades. Yet it doesn't apply to trans women. No trans woman can spend any time on Mumsnet and not conclude that if she wants to quietly use female spaces she has to up her performance and make sure that she passes perfectly.

So yes. Those glam rock stars of the 80s would be OK today if they claimed to be gay men but if they IDd as women they would be hounded and harassed to get surgery after surgery.

I love you Snappity.

Eh? Snappity most of those make-up-wearing long-haired men in dresses back in the day were neither gay nor trans. They were just themselves.

They never claimed to be women, although many of them liked wearing feminine clothes. They didn't need to use female spaces, why would they? There were certainly less trans people back then (I know far more now in my 50s than I ever did in my 20s) or at least less out ones perhaps. But we didn't care.

People with penises used the mens, no matter what they were wearing. People without used the ladies. Maybe some swapped over, it didn't matter.

It still doesn't matter to me if trans people don't "pass". I still accept them as people. That's why I like the argument for third spaces, because it wouldn't "other" trans people - I'd use them too. I think most people would to be fair.

But I'd like to keep the sex-segregated spaces for people who, unlike me, are unable to share with people of the opposite sex no matter what they present at.

And to me, that's far more what not passing as a woman is about. Not clothes, or hair, or makeup. Not facial features or voices. What anyone has in their pants is none of my business. I'd share with them. Hell, unlike lesbians I would probably sleep with them if I wasn't married to DH and I found them attractive - being trans isn't a dealbreaker for me. But for some people it is an issue and I have empathy for them and believe they too have rights and that's something I see very little of in the trans community - empathy for other people's positions.

Yam an interesting thread and I like your post.
I was a punk, still am at heart.

In the 80s, trans people were oppressed but nobody told them what a trans person had to be.

You see, in the 80s trans meant either transvestite or transexual. I suspect most of us were gender benders at some point. We knew the difference between sex and gender. The first was 'a thing' the second was a fun fashion idea.

Nobody TOLD trans people to be anything because, well, they were just doing it for themselves, or, as Poula describes, being squashed by conservative family.

Sadly the latter is slow to change and it is a pity that the freedom to explore femininity/masculinity without being pigeonholed has been destroyed. Today is so much more formal in how social constructs are 'allowed'. Al the fun and creativity of being a 'freak' has been replaced by a fear of being seen to be not PC, woke or cool.

Maybe if nobody demanded labels and then forced people to live within them nobody would give a flying fuck about how anyone presents themselves and we could all live happily, in whatever garb we chose this morning! And then social mores and laws would change n a far less aggressive, restrictive manner.

Today's transgender community seem so narrow-minded.

This is so true. I too am a child of the 80s and society is definitely going backwards. But in the 80s, people dressed as they wanted to, expressed themselves as they wanted to, believed what they wanted to believe - but then didn't force it on others. What makes me so angry today is the relentless bullying and harrassing of those who don't susbcribe to the trans agenda, those whose every word is policed in Orwellian fashion to make sure they don't cross some line in the trans-approved vocabulary.

that's something I see very little of in the trans community - empathy for other people's positions.

Such a true statement. For a long, long time, I was very "live and let live" about the whole issue. But the aggression and anger of the trans community has alienated me hugely: the insistence that I use certain terminology to describe not them but me - that I have to be a "ciswoman", I no longer have the right to describe myself as a "woman"; that how I fed my child was "chestfeeding", not "breastfeeding". The selfishness and the self-obsession, the "me me me" of it all, the narcissism of certain individuals and their bloody Twitter feeds and their endless tedious pursuit of those who don't subscribe to every single diktat that they lay down - God, it's exhausting.

snappity

I believe India Willoughby has indeed made the claim that India only had FFS because trolls made India do it.

Another school of thought is that India wanted validation that India is actually a woman, no different from me, my mum and my daughter.

Obviously neither you nor I nor anyone else will ever know the real reason. But the latter certainly seems to fit more with the way India has publicly browbeaten women to go along with the narrative that India is actually a woman.