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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Well, this is apocalyptic

44 replies

LangCleg · 12/07/2018 12:31

Long read, but worth it. Ends: The risk is that we only belatedly realise that transhumanism is oppression disguised as liberation. This cannot be good for all but the richest, most privileged women. Again, I am thinking about the prostitutes in Altered Carbon, who agree to be strangled to death for the payment of a shiny new body.

quillette.com/2018/07/11/the-transhumanism-revolution-oppression-disguised-as-liberation/

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RatRolyPoly · 12/07/2018 13:20

Well it started off well, but out of no-where she managed to shoehorn a bit of trans-panic in there - from about mid way through.

It's no surprise really as a quick Google tells me the woman isn't a scientist, so all that early sciencey stuff was just to make the trans panic all the more convincing when she finally got round to it. And boy was she going to get round to it what with her being and author at The Federalist, would you believe. So some solid far right wing bias one would conclude.

And if you follow it through logically from all the "scientists can nearly separate our mind from our bodies!" stuff, it actually doesn't make any sense for her to later deride transgenderism for promoting an "illusory" mind-body dualism. It can't be very nearly happening on the one hand and "illusory" on the other, can it.

I didn't read every word of it because right from the off it was going to be nonsense.

LassWiADelicateAir · 12/07/2018 13:22

I didn't read every word of it because right from the off it was going to be nonsense

I didn't even open it - for the same reason.

nauticant · 12/07/2018 13:24

I haven't opened the link but I think it's an excellent article.

LangCleg · 12/07/2018 14:01

I haven't opened the link but I think it's an excellent article.

LOL!

Seriously, of interest to me because it's about how hyper-individualist capitalism is beginning to commodify the self. This will not benefit anyone but the ultra-privileged. We'll have a techo-religious elite if nobody takes notice.

I honestly don't understand how plainly right wing ideologies are being presented as progressive any more than how observing on the dangers could possibly be presented as reactionary. Prima facie evidence of how social constructionism rots the brain, if you ask me.

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nauticant · 12/07/2018 14:04

It's a very interesting area. I'll be reading the article later. Then, once I've read it, I'll decide what I think of it.

AngryAttackKittens · 12/07/2018 14:18

Have to run now but will give it a read later and then tell you if I think it's any good. Not sure why some want to do things the other way around...

womanformallyknownaswoman · 12/07/2018 15:35

It always amazes me that rather than ignoring a post because it's of little interest, some find the need to be dismissive without review - don't film reviewers get criticised for making a judgement without actually seeing the film?

Anyway, I read the article and it's very interesting. It's primarily about technology and the profound implications for human existance of some of the latest advances. Anyone with a technology background/interest understands the grave risks posed by some of the advances that are being tested in the field, on humans, without proper piloting or being subject to rigorous oversight. That's how we've ended with a lawless territory of cyberspace that is designed by men for men and which silences not only the voices of women but any real critique or examination of what is really going on.

Technology is effectively being adopted wholesale without any oversight and that can't be a good thing. We've seen on a relatively small scale how personal data was sequestered and really the horse has bolted on that one. We see how trafficking of children and child porn is one the increase to fulfil the deviances of many males. This deviant behaviour is nurtured and accelerated by access to hardcore porn from early ages. The police already say they can't contain it. The net encourages these deviants by allowing them to form communities where they normalise their perversions. This is a huge backward step for humanity.

Many of us want to press the pause button and define a system of governance for technology. Particularly concerning is the skewed architecture of machine learning and AI that is based only on male experience and male designers. This is not good enough. We make new drugs go through clinical trials so why not new technolgy?

The article talks in depth about some of the new advances and goes on to observe:

As DIY body hackers trick out their meat machines, technologies such as CRISPR gene editing software and artificial wombs further the intentional biomechanization of the human form. In one lab, human beings will be edited on a genetic level—from the isolation of mitochondrial DNA for the purposes of life extension to the eradication of genetic deformities, diseases, and implementation of parental preferences—and in another, humans will be artificially gestated.
Both of these concepts speak to a dramatic shift in our relationship with both our bodies and our children. Liberating the body from reproduction liberates humanity from our own physical continuation. At first glance, reproductive advocates may tout this as progress, but removing reproduction from our bodily purview does not only liberate us from the body, it also subjects us to the tyranny of the mind. Removing the body from reproduction is primarily the elimination of women from the process of creating human beings. Liberation from reproduction is liberation from sex, both in act and biology. At which point, gender truly becomes fashion with no remaining foundations in the story of human origins.

These experiments should be of concern to anyone critically thinking about their implications. It is these concerns that underlay some of my misgivings around the belief that one can change sex. Not only do I not subscribe to that belief but by allowing it to be normalised without professional impact statements and studies is tantamount to a gross failure of duty of care by all those organsations tasked with oversight imo.

Another quote is:

Contrary to popular perception and much of the transgender movement’s own rhetoric, transgender activism is not about compassion and dignity. Although transgender advocacy is couched in the language of oppression and identity, the idea that it is merely the latest facet of an ongoing civil rights struggle is a misconception. In the current cultural climate, to question the concept of transgenderism is to question the right of trans individuals to exist. This is an extremely effective strategy that deters the skeptical from digging into an ideology by labelling them bigots for doing so. But the implications of transgenderism are so serious and far-reaching that questions must be asked. At issue is not simply societal acceptance of people with alternative views or lifestyles, but the most fundamental aspects of what it means to be human.

It is no anomaly that the movement is hitting its cultural stride in the debate over pronouns. The first step in changing how we think about our bodies and what it means to be human is to change how we speak about these things. Transgender speech codes demand that we renounce our bodies’ basis in biology, and instead consider them constructs of arbitrary (and somehow unjust) societal expectations. We are not to think about ‘mother’ and ‘father’ as reproductive terms, but as culturally specified relationships. This aggressive effort to change and police the use of language, and to redefine terms like ‘male’ and ‘female’ to deny the sexual difference characteristic of all mammals, is designed to uncouple mind from body and humans from evolutionary and reproductive logic. Instead, an ideology of emotion is to be given dominion over biological reality.

Many of these questions do bear close examination and debate. To close down any debate is a red flag that there is something to hide. There's nothing wrong in taking one's time to make informed decisions about the implications of new advances. What's missing is a system of governance to examine the implications of new technology as well as new beliefs - I would make any group based on beliefs go through this process including some organisations like Scientology and suspect churches as well as nefarious NFPs.

Great article - thx for the link. I see parallels with the Heather Heying talk I linked to recently where she is warning that we humans can't cope with the current rate of change and also that childhood development and maturity is being regressed by over-reliance on technology. I'm also part way through the Hypernormalisation documentary. It all makes for interesting discussions and putting more pressure on us to call a halt until we have a better handle on the implications of so-called contemporary "advances".

SomeDyke · 12/07/2018 15:50

I loved this phrase:
"Instead, an ideology of emotion is to be given dominion over biological reality."

For feminists the issue with males was that how males thought about our actual biology, and their emotion over that biological difference led then to create spurious/untrue supposedly biological differences (i.e., wombs hysteria, female biology and hormones means we can't/shouldn't fly planes when we're on the rag etc etc). Feminists try to decouple the emotion from the biology. Whereas TRAs claim to 'get round the problem' by instead claiming that only the 'emotion' (i.e. the subjective view) matters (and some of us keep having the wrong emotions!).

Also the emotion/biology dichotomy, we have subjective/objective, and also individual versus group analysis. TRAs versus feminists, they really are on totally the other side of the coin, although they try to use the same language to give the appearance that they are not doing this. Like taking individualistic 'feelings' of oppression (by lesbians holding up definitions you don't like, for example), as being the same as (or even worse than) oppression as a class (female or male for example) based on biology.

I'd also chuck in an obsession with the virtual as opposed to the real world as being another facet of the same thing, that what you feel and perceive (via the screen), trumping (pun intended!) the real world, actual biology, and actual people doing people things..........

Cascade220 · 12/07/2018 16:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FloralBunting · 12/07/2018 16:06

Fascinating stuff. It's a useful vehicle for mass control, isn't it? I'm reminded of Doctor Who and the various ways the activities of the Cybermen are portrayed. Of particular relevance is the introduction of the Cybermen in the David Tennant episodes like The Age of Steel. The populace find themselves consenting to their own control by virtue of their eagerness for the latest technology, blue tooth ear buds in this instance. It's only a few crazy sci fi steps to 'Upgrading' the fleshy human experience into the Cybernetic body.

LangCleg · 12/07/2018 16:21

That's how we've ended with a lawless territory of cyberspace that is designed by men for men and which silences not only the voices of women but any real critique or examination of what is really going on.

Exactly. I'd also add privileged men because I see both women and all working class people as being potentially adversely affected by this.

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LangCleg · 12/07/2018 16:24

SomeDyke - essentially, we are becoming our own avatars. It's concerning. I like the article because it's an overall arc. Interesting that the intersection with extreme trans ideology is seen as "panic" rather than part of an overall, and rather concerning for the majority of the world's population, picture.

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womanformallyknownaswoman · 12/07/2018 17:20

essentially, we are becoming our own avatars.

I recall being introduced to Second Life - where you have your own avatar and can effectively design a new persona - clothes, personality, body etc.

I found it so freaky - and of course, there were a lot who were being sexually explicit with their avatars but also people who made whole new communities with currencies, friends etc.

I have enough problems with staying present with some of the horror of real life that I don't need another persona but help to stay with my own, in the face of so much societal gaslighting and erasure of women.

nauticant · 12/07/2018 17:30

If there is one mis-step on this thread, it's that it should have been titled "Well, this is pocalyptic" ().

LangCleg · 12/07/2018 17:33

This may be a bit of detour from topic, but I moved from big city to rural farming community about a decade ago. I'm feeling increasingly glad that I did. You miss out on some things - culture, services - but that "avatar lifestyle" as it were, is much less prevalent. People are more connected with each other and more in touch with the real world.

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LangCleg · 12/07/2018 17:34

If there is one mis-step on this thread, it's that it should have been titled "Well, this is pocalyptic"

Ha. Post of the day!

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seafret · 12/07/2018 18:03

Just for information...

The film 1999 film The Matrix (where humans are farmed by machines while thier minds are occupied in a false reality) was written and directed by the Wachowski Brothers, who have transitioned and are now transwomen... so there the exploration of seperating min, body and reality is clearly not so far from trans issues.

God, yes Second Life. very disturbing.

I agree re rural lving. We have just moved back to a rural county at last and although we are stuck in a tiny flat with health problems, it is poles apart from the areas of real and entrenched deprivation that we have lived near. if you had lived here all your life you would have no real idea of what is out there.

We are thinking of becoming hermits on a tiny island if we win the lottery!

KataraJean · 12/07/2018 18:14

I think the article is thought-provoking; it paints a very dystopian picture, though I can see the cogency of the arguments.

I wonder why there is a whole mindfulness boom on one hand (being conscious of your body, breath, stopping your thought, you are not your thoughts) and this on the other (the full focus on the subjective autonomy of the mind). Modern society is very disjointed.

FloralBunting · 12/07/2018 21:23

In religious terms, these ideas are under the umbrella of gnosticism and dualism - the ideas that matter and spirit are not only different, but that matter is lesser than spirit, if not completely evil. That certain people have 'higher' knowledge and access realms unconnected to physical things.

It's actually one of the reasons, religiously, I'm a Catholic, because there is real pushback in the history of the church against these notions - I believe very firmly that our bodies are good, and intimately interconnected with our whole person. Yes, I believe in a 'soul', but the material reality of the body is fundamental to Christian belief. It's what the idea of 'resurrection' is all about.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 12/07/2018 21:51

Not buying it. Human cognition is inextricably embodied. When we're babies our brains develop through the use of our bodies. As adults perception depends on sense organs distributed through our bodies. Mainstream neuroscientific thinking suggests that our ability to perceive, think, make decisions and work towards goals depends on an embodied process of active inference.

Dualism is a fastidious fantasy engaged in by people who can't cope with mess, imperfection, personal limits or the idea of death, that's my twopenneth

womanformallyknownaswoman · 13/07/2018 09:19

so there the exploration of seperating min, body and reality is clearly not so far from trans issues.

What strikes me about many who believe that surgery and hormones will cure their ills is their lack of being present in their bodies. I've seen that in a lot of abuse victims as well as abusers ie Cluster Bs.

For abuse victims, the reality of being present in their body is traumatic, because of what was done to them. It can undo them.

To Cluster Bs it's a convenient cover to find new hunting territories as their previous ones are closed to them thru increased awareness of abusive behaviour.

Re Second Life - pleased to find someone else who found it disturbing.

I live in a country area - pretty conservative- but what gets me is whilst I value the traditional way of life, is their attachment to nuclear family life as the only model they subscribe to - that's ok for those who have healthy families but isolating for those who don't. Plus the intellectual stimulation is hard to find as well as other feminists- I joined another woman in an argument with a guy who insisted men were the victors over women hence why they should be in power - male violence and dominant behaviours are pretty close to the surface under the skin of civilised veneer. I made a new feminist friend tho!!

nauticant · 13/07/2018 09:37

A fair proportion of articles I read on Second Life seemed to be about the design/choice of penis presentation by denizens.

LangCleg · 13/07/2018 09:42

Human cognition is inextricably embodied.

I think so.

the reality of being present in their body is traumatic

Exactly.

Now I'm thinking of the repeated failures to download the consciousness of the Peter Mullan character in Westworld. I don't believe in dualism, but I do believe in disassociation. Which, basically, is what dysphoria is, no?

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LangCleg · 13/07/2018 09:44

their attachment to nuclear family life as the only model they subscribe to

I only have one experience of a UK rural community but it's not like that here. No religion either - the poor local vicar has to run three parishes because the congregations are so tiny.

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womanformallyknownaswoman · 13/07/2018 11:42

I do believe in disassociation. Which, basically, is what dysphoria is, no?

Yes that's my understanding - when one is abused as a girl then along with the package is the psychological abuse where the child is made to believe they are bad. As a way of surviving traumatic events like CSA or family violence etc, the child disassociates as their mind naturally can't hold the 2 extremes of their body telling them something is very wrong and being hurt in some way, whilst they are being told there is nothing wrong and the person is being "kind" and "loving" to them-for their own good /s

Also afterwards being threatened to make them the keeper of the secret.

So when the mind can't compute that duality of extremes - which it's not designed to - disassociation occurs - as a coping mechanism. The traumatic memory is stored as fragments - a pleasant sensation here, body pain there, terror somewhere else and so on.

The brain literally shuts it/them off as a survival mechanism. Then later in life often not until after 40 in serious abuse, the fragments reappear bit by bit - there's no coherence or narrative and can make someone feel crazy because they can't explain what's happening to them.

During adolescence what seems to happen is the young woman will start hurting themselves as a way to deal with unconscious emotional distress whose roots lie in the abuse - they turn the natural unconscious anger onto themselves, as they have been conditioned to do, so substance abuse, piercing, cutting, anorexia, dysphoria etc.

That's where the mental health professional often get it very wrong imo - they treat the symptom and victim blame rather than name the root cause - male violence. Then the person who has been criminally victimised is made to feel like they are the problem and are continually blamed and re-abused by administrative abuse (welfare etc)

I'm hope I haven't womansplained!

Haven't watched Westworld

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