Abortion - "its days are numbered"

[abilockhart]

In the US, there will quite possibly be a 5-4 majority on the Court to overturn Roe v. Wade when Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh is confirmed.
www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/10/17551644/brett-kavanaugh-roe-wade-abortion-trump

Meanwhile, here in the UK, Jacob Rees-Mogg, the bookies' favourite to succeed Theresa May, is against abortion in all circumstances, including in cases of rape:

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2017/09/06/jacob-rees-mogg-says-against-gay-marriage-abortion-circumstance/

Is access to abortion now under serious threat?

Not under threat here...it doesn't matter how Mogg feels about it.

A total ban on abortion, including after rape, and incest. And disabilities that are so severe the fetus cannot survive after birth. Just let that sink in.
Women's rights have never seen such a concerted attack in living memory, both from the Right and from men's rights activists.
It's bad enough now, you wait til theres no NHS.

I do not support Mogg’s personal views on abortion but I do feel that in the interests of fairness, he is clear that they are his personal views.

With regard to ‘even in cases of rape’ - I actually can respect someone who sees abortion as wrong because they see the foetus as a human life rather than someone who sees abortion as wrong because they want to punish women for having sex (ergo, if you didn’t want to have sex, you are blameless.)

Rees moggs personal opinions don't mean anything, to overturn the current laws would require a dramatic vote through parliament, and I'd expect they'd seek a public referendum first. There are no such plans and no support for such a thing, to attempt it would be political suicide.

The only thing that might change is they may one day look at reducing the number of weeks up to which abortion is available, if the medical research supported it. I'm not sure on the exact number, I think it's 26 weeks currently? As medical advancements are happening and more preemie babies are surviving before this point there may be a case to reduce it for non medical reasons but again a discussion would need to be had based on evidence and a vote through parliament.

The Tories would be mad to choose him as their leader, there's a difference between finding him vaguely witty on HIGNFY and thinking he'd make a good leader of anything. Hopefully the Tracey Ullman sketches will stop anyone taking him seriously.

No I don't think access to abortion is under threat in the UK - quite the opposite as seen by calls to extend it to NI.

Another issue of concern is that even if abortion remains legal in the UK, access to abortion could still become an issue.

In a US-UK trade deal, it is highly likely the US would negotiate greater access for its companies to the National Health Service. This would inevitably lead to the privitisation of the NHS and would be the end of the NHS as we know it.

I will stand by my sisters in the US. I do think they are in trouble there.

Ok, deep breath, this is my divergence and why I do not call myself a Feminist - as someone who is openly Catholic, this will come as no surprise, but I am pro-life, anti abortion etc.

But, I don't think for a second that abortion access is under threat at all in the UK. I don't even think overturning Roe V Wade, should it happen, which I don't think it will, would have much effect in the US, where this is much more of a live issue. It would just throw the issue back to the individual states. But that's the US, which is culturally and politically very different to the UK.

Jacob Rees Mogg is a popular figure, and yep, he's against abortion. But he's not prime minister, and even if he were, abortion is a free vote, conscience issue in the house, and as the overwhelming majority of MPs are not even slightly anti abortion, why do people think Rees Mogg's views and mere presence in that democratic chamber constitute any kind of threat to the current situation?

Given that the current situation is that prayer outside abortion clinics is banned in at least one place, home abortions are very likely on the cards, access to abortion is on demand in all but name, and most people think that abortion should at least be legal, even if they don't always agree on the time limit, I don't see at all why the existence of Rees Mogg would lead anyone to conclude that abortion access is under threat...

Is the Rees-Moggie still deriving income from investments in abortion pills? He really is an appalling hypocrite.

There is a definite feeling at the moment that womens rights are under threat. Politically we are leaning to extremes usually to the detriment of womens rights. I wouldn't right Mogg off as no one thought it possible Trump would be leader and here we are.

As for the number of weeks that abortion is allowed up to it is currently 24 weeks. This is not only because there is no viability before this but because screening at 20 weeks highlights issues. The 24 weeks allows for parents to have choices if their are problems. Some women because of waiting lists are not getting the scans till 21 or 22 weeks. If a baby may have a life long debilitating condition imagine saying to that women sorry you have to go through the rest of the pregnancy and birth (even if it will kill you also) as one baby out of 1000s survived before 24 weeks so the law was changed. It is barbaric.

Any change to roll back abortion should be met with the strongest of protest in my opinion.

People thought abortion rights were safe in the US because of Roe Wade.
Wake up. The UK is splitting from the EU, losing human rights legislation and the NHS, and brokering new trade deals.

oh and just for the likes of Mogg in the back

women are not walking incubators we have rights over our own bodies.

I never thought they'd manage to overturn Roe-vs-Wade, but now it looks like a distinct possibility, almost a certainty

This onslaught against women's rights is actually becoming frightening, v v scary.

The only thing that might change is they may one day look at reducing the number of weeks up to which abortion is available, if the medical research supported it. I'm not sure on the exact number, I think it's 26 weeks currently? As medical advancements are happening and more preemie babies are surviving before this point there may be a case to reduce it for non medical reasons but again a discussion would need to be had based on evidence and a vote through parliament.

And even this isn't necessary and would only be done for ideological reasons, not survivability reasons.

76% of abortions are carried out at less than 10 weeks.
90% are carried out at less than 13 weeks.

Only 0.1% are carried out at 24 weeks and over. These are the down-and-dirty, agonising cases that any law reducing the time limit would make exceptions for anyway - late diagnosis of catastrophic, unsurvivable foetal disability; sudden catastrophic illness risking life of mother; child pregnant due to abuse who hid/didn't know about pregnancy, etc.

As far as anyone knows, is there another MP in the house who holds the same view on abortion as Rees Mogg? I genuinely don't know, tbh.

There are a few - eg. Nadine Dorries & Frank (someone) tried to bring in some restrictions to abortion a few years ago. Some are against it for religious/conscientious reasons.

But the vast majority are pro-women's-choice.

Is Nadine Dorries as hard-line as Rees Mogg on the topic? I know there some who agree on reducing the time limit but I only know of Rees Mogg who flatly against, even in rape cases.

They looked at reducing the week’s limit in the U.K. before and it was deemed medically unworkable - catastrophic conditions are usually found at the 20 week scan and you need time to further investigate/confirm with a consultant, and then time to emotionally counsel parents before terminating.

If the 20 week scan is a week or two behind schedule, it’s even worse.

No one gets routine abortions at 24 weeks.

I think she's harder line than she would admit to in parliament to be honest. She was in cahoots with a load of far right religious US groups when she brought about her amendment in parliament - you know the sort - go around chanting outside abortion clinics and shooting doctors outside their surgeries.

She was anecdotally reported as saying she wants to chip away at abortion rights piece by piece until it was outlawed - but I don't know how true that actually is.

Thanks for the info LangCleg

Not arguing for or against changing anything. Just pointing out that any change would require a democratic vote through parliament, (and the House of lords?) considerable public support and evidence to back it up. Leaving the EU, etc etc doesn't change that, we're not a dictatorship or the US. There's no support amongst the public or in government for removing abortion access.

Halebeke425 entirely my point, yes. I understand the nervousness among feminists on the issue, because of the pull and influence of other undoubtedly anti-woman things, but I just don't think anti-abortion campaigning in this country has anything more than totemic power.

floral lapsed Catholic here

I have never been against abortion but until i was older did have some caveats

But i think what's happening in America is horrific

I really dont under stand how rights can be rolled back in this way, it makes me obviously concerned for women's rights over there but also gay rights, trans rights etc...just dreadful

I don't think abortion is at risk. The UK is not America. It's a political hot potato there, whereas most British people don't see abortion as controversial. Neither do most MPs.

It would take a complete change of tack to get a law passed and I don't believe there's any appetite for a change. All the medical experts say the 24 week limit is there for good reasons, and they can easily - and heartbreakingly- illustrate what those reasons are

My SIL had an abortion just before the deadline, after discovering the foetus had a chromosomal abnormality. Had he survived birth he would have died in the first couple of years. My SIL and DB are both very religious and it was a terrible decision to make.

My brother was told that if his DW didn't have his support to end the pregnancy, her MH might never recover. Then their priest said it was OK when a foetus was so severely affected. My DB caved, though I know he still feels they made the wrong decision and SIL should have taken the pregnancy to term and accepted God's will going forward. Yet he's not the one who's a Catholic. Weird.

I find it hard to imagine my loving, ever kindly little DB trying to stop my SIL from having an abortion. Painful. But then he's always been a black and white sort of person.

Rufus, it's probably my biggest struggle tbh. I am wholly committed to women's rights. But I truly believe there is an intractable conflict between the two positions that I have to come down on erring on the side of life. Which is why I don't call myself a feminist because I understand that this is such an important issue in feminist thought.

Not arguing for or against changing anything. Just pointing out that any change would require a democratic vote through parliament, (and the House of lords?) considerable public support and evidence to back it up. Leaving the EU, etc etc doesn't change that, we're not a dictatorship or the US. There's no support amongst the public or in government for removing abortion access.

Exactly.