Can other people not see what is going on?

[Iseveryusernamealreadytaken]

I've been reading some of the comments on this thread about 'monosexuals' which is their new way of talking about lesbians (it ostensibly includes straight people and gay men too and its purpose is to class us as the dominant, privileged, accepted group as opposed to the 'queer community'.)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3300454-To-feel-sad-that-I-cant-support-LGBT-anymore?pg=4&order=

Apparently there are two types of lesbian, the kind with an inherent defect which affects their ability to have "normal, decent" relationships and the majority for which it is a moral failing which we can and should overcome.

I am so sick of this shit. I have lived through this already - harassment from guys to show me what I'm missing - or getting accused of being a bigoted man-hater because I won't have sex with them, a friend who went through conversion therapy and another who was exorcised before you get to all the general negative messages from society.

I thought at one point things were getting better for young lesbians but now it is just the same old crap in a different frock.

I can see it because I've lived through it before but can most straight people see what is happening and can young lesbians who have never known anything different?

Noting here the following observation by BigEarthBear from that Reddit: "trans activism is all about trans women... trans men are kind of invisible except when trans women want to control how women talk about menstruation and having children"

Noting here the following observation by BigEarthBear from that Reddit: "trans activism is all about trans women... trans men are kind of invisible except when trans women want to control how women talk about menstruation and having children

Yes! Absolutely spot on.

"trans activism is all about trans women... trans men are kind of invisible except when trans women want to control how women talk about menstruation and having children"

YY, this!

Obviously the Guardian has to shoehorn a trans perspective into this otherwise a fairy dies

🤣

Hilarious! It's like something from a woke pomo panto

YetAnotherSparacus
What came first and which is the driver - misogyny or porn?
Misogyny drives porn and porn has become ever more women hating over time.

The transcult is all about males and misogyny. So the transcult revels in porn. Women generally are the victims of this - lesbians in particular.

Lesbians are targeted because they are women and because they have no sexual use for men. It's misogyny and homophobia rolled into one

Can someone explain to me what the issue is? Are lesbians being criticised because they don't want to sleep with women with penises? Who is doing the criticising (individuals, I can guess which groups)

As a 6ft mother of 6ft DDs I'm failing to see what height has to do with this.

..but see how easy it is to stray into prejudice???

I think it’s very hard because it’s an ideology that uses inclusion as it’s weapon.
However sometimes “ inclusion and equality “ equals exclusion and inequality.
Eg: loosing women only spaces, places in politics, sport , bursary, etc. Etc
It’s in the universities and any questioning, they are told is hate speech. The peer pressure is immense. There is also a clamping down on free speech, not just around this, but some how it seems to be a human right to not be offended. Can you imagine what hell it would be to try and question any of this in that atmosphere.

I remember the day I sat down with a friend and we both talked about how we had had sex when we were younger when we didn’t want to, because our boundaries as young women were not in place. We put the man feelings ahead of our own. Ie I’d rather hurt myself and violate my own boundaries that upset you.

There are many factors. Women can take a long time to really question things, for me it took a lot of discomfort and a willingness not to be liked for my boundaries to get stronger and question stuff.

The libfem stance, which has a lot of traction amongst young LGBT people is more or less:
Lesbian means being attracted to women and femininity. Trans women are women and therefore lesbians can be attracted to them. If a lesbian is attracted to a trans woman, but changes her mind when she finds out the trans woman still has a penis, that's transphobic and the lesbian needs to 'critically examine her prejudices'. Whenever this debate comes up, there's a lot of shouting about how it isn't about individuals and of course everyone has the right to say no to anyone for whatever reason. But if you're ruling out all trans women with penises, then you're probably a bigot.

It's easy for young lesbians to get caught up in that in that because there is a lot of peer pressure, they don't want to be excluded or considered bigots. They have also most likely been raised to put the needs of others before their own (as women typically are). They may well know and have compassion for trans women and feel that the problem is theirs and they should force themselves to get over it. That's more or less how I felt. I did date a trans woman and honestly, I did find her attractive, when she was fully dressed. The penis was a turn off. Unfortunately, she was very pushy about sex and I was young and inexperienced and still put my comfort second to her wants. It was a horrible experience and personally now I would rather be branded a transphobe than repeat it.

I don't go around shouting about how trans women with penises are disgusting, because there's no need for that. But I do dispute the idea that if lesbians aren't open to sex with a penis they're bigoted. Even if PIV sex isn't involved, sex organs are kind of an important part of sex (unlike skin colour, which is the comparison TRAs like to make), so people are entitled not to want particular sex organs involved in their sex life.

Sorry, Billy. Of course there are many tall women. I suspect BlackForest may be thinking of the many very tall transgender athletes who are competing against women and beating them effortlessly.

Like <a class="break-all" href="https://gendertrender-wordpress-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/gendertrender.wordpress.com/2012/12/06/glaad-celebrates-womens-junior-college-basketball-player-gabrielle-ludwig-because-hes-a-6-foot-8-230-pound-50-year-old-man/amp/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQECAE4AQ%3D%3D#referrer=www.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fgendertrender.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F12%2F06%2Fglaad-celebrates-womens-junior-college-basketball-player-gabrielle-ludwig-because-hes-a-6-foot-8-230-pound-50-year-old-man%2F" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Gabrielle Ludwig, who is winning in Women’s Junior College Basketball. This is not unconnected to the fact that Gabrielle is 6 foot 8, 230 pound, 50 year-old and male.

Oh, and Billy I'm not persuaded it's prejudice to notice that the average male is taller than the average woman.

I absolutely agree it's appalling, but I'm not surprised most people don't know what's going on tbh. If I weren't on MN I wouldn't really have a clue about this or about any of the issues around trans. It's not something that ever comes up in my daily life. Nobody in my social circle or at work has ever mentioned it and I've never had a single conversation about it in rl except once with dh.

I don't take issue with the hulking six footers comment, and I AM a hulking six footer with massive shoulders still a woman though.

Ok, can I test out an idea here? I think LGBT groups are in a tight corner.

What they need to keep lesbians included is to be able to say openly that single sex attraction is a thing. That biowomen only attracted to biowomen exist. Everyone knows they do, what proportion of lesbians they are we don't know but we suspect rather large.

But they can't do that can they? Because if that group are allowed to exist, let's call them bio-lesbians for the sake of argument (and yes I agree lesbians is perfectly adequate but for the sake of clarity), then bio-lesbians could decide to have their own meet ups and events. Excluding transwomen lesbians. Who then throw their toys out of the pram because there's a real-women club they're not allowed in.

So LGBT can't validate single sex attraction without admitting TW are not W. Not can they say single sex attraction doesn't exist because obviously it does. Uncomfortable these fences aren't they?

You're right, Catkind. Of course the reason none of the LGBT groups will tackle the issue is that men who identify as women have far more clout than the lowly lesbians. Men who identify as women say nodebate and everyone around them says absolutely.

That's why gender critical feminists drive them into a froth. We won't shut up.

If not for mumsnet I wouldn't have a clue what's going on. I am still trying to understand how I as a biological woman can now be referred to as cis woman. Why do I need a prefix ? Why must I be a prefix to validate Bob in accounts who overnight decides he want to be a Barbara?
This is a fight not just for lesbians but for all women ( I refuse to be called a cis) and it sets back everything the women's movement fought for all those many years ago.
I get that young straight women want to feel they are being inclusive and all that but I say lets survey these women and ask how many would consider a trans man as a suitable dating partner bearing in mind trans men by trans activists definition are men ( even though they have a vagina). It would make interesting read.
Has there been a survey on straight men dating trans women? After all they are "women" and suitable dating pool..

What they need to keep lesbians included is to be able to say openly that single sex attraction is a thing. That biowomen only attracted to biowomen exist. Everyone knows they do, what proportion of lesbians they are we don't know but we suspect rather large

Things will change when gay men are told they have to sleep with born-women who identify as men (with or without surgery) and/or when they are told that being gay and only liking dick is a only a preference and not an orientation. That's not terribly likely to happen. The GLBT movement is largely controlled by males and has always been more than happy to throw lesbians under the bus.

Like Gabrielle Ludwig, who is winning in Women’s Junior College Basketball. This is not unconnected to the fact that Gabrielle is 6 foot 8, 230 pound, 50 year-old and male.
Some people have absolutely no shame. It's staggering.

I get that young straight women want to feel they are being inclusive and all that
If they want to be inclusive they should be supporting lesbians, other women. They've bought into the 'biggest victims' lie.

The concerted effort to demonise lesbians makes me think of the targetting of women as witches. Any label is good enough to attach to non-compliant women and get everyone else to hate them.

I’ve been GC actively for two years now and having had ample time to consider the question posed by the OP I have concluded that people are either malicious misogynists and/or stupid and/or cowards.

It’s all different facets of the same attitude, which is that women are not allowed to say no to men. A no is seen as the start point of a negotiation, rather than an absolute boundary. When it comes to lesbians it’s like the ultimate rejection of men who think like that, and it triggers serious rage in them. The use of this new ‘woke’ ideology is just another stick to beat you (and women in general) into submission with.

This ↑ 100%

Just noticed that Avery Edison is followed by Barack Obama. And Sophie Walker. As well as Marian Keyes. Following an aggressive male who justifies violence against women.

No words.

Following means you want to know what someone is saying. Doesn't mean you agree with it does it?

Why would anyone want to know what a misogynist bully, who condones threats of violence, is saying? The police, maybe. But I can’t see how Avery’s hateful tweets could be of relevance to anyone else.

If people want to engage with trans discourse there are accounts they can follow that don’t hate women quite so overtly.