Sexual assault in toilets

[ConfessionsOfTeenageDramaQueen]

Just thought this might be of interest with regard to those who constantly dismiss the possibility of women being sexually assaulted in toilets.

Yes it's from the DM but it's actually an in-depth report from a journalist who has recently visited Lesbos and spoken to many of the women currently living in Moria.

This jumped out at me: "Sexual assault is rife. Many women here say they dare not use toilets at night, some even using nappies, for fear of sexual assault with one case a week reported to MSF."

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5928785/Left-rot-Lesbos-Thousands-asylum-seekers-crammed-idyllic-Greek-Island.html

It's not clear what the toilet set-up is there in terms of sex segregation but the point is, let's not pretend it doesn't happen, yeah?

Good points, it was one of the points raised at a WNTT meeting I attended - the 1st thing refugee women ask for is segregated toilets. We know this. But it never happens right?

A couple of years ago there was a campaign on Reddit to help supply refugees with menstrual products, and there were some extremely dismissive, sneering comments from men. Along the lines of 'they are fleeing for their lives and you think this is the most pressing issue'.

They got their arses handed to them on a plate by a hoard of furious women, and several men posted to say thank you as they hadn't realised what a period was.

This link is from Reuters;
''Refugees lack menstrual supplies and private, safe toilets''

www.reuters.com/article/us-people-harvey-weinstein/hollywood-mogul-weinstein-due-in-court-in-third-sex-assault-case-idUSKBN1JZ1HR

See also: www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-44613522 though these women don’t even have a toilet.

Wrong link? That's a Harvey Weinstein one...

Every organisation and expert on sanitation, toilet facilities and refugee issues, as well as increasing female participation in education and public life in developing countries, is clear that safe, sex segregated toilets are necessary for the well being of women and girls.

Someone made the point on here a while back that there's an undercurrent of racism to the "but it never happens" claims, as well as entitled misogyny. It's only a problem for "them", not for "us"

Dammit. Reuters have moved the article.

Here we go;

Refugees lack menstrual supplies and private, safe toilets
www.reuters.com/article/us-health-refugees-menstruation/refugees-lack-menstrual-supplies-and-private-safe-toilets-idUSKBN1D629P

Yes Olennas I was half considering addressing the point of "it never happens here" in my OP before deciding the notion is so racist I wouldn't bother.

I think it's very patronising that on one hand charities fight for sex segregated toilets in countries like India, and on the other hand are fighting for unisex toilets in the UK and the USA.

Do they think that we've evolved past needing sex segregation? That we've somehow found a cure for misogyny and sexual assault and harassment? As someone who's been assaulted in western unisex toilets I can promise that's certainly not the case.

But, is the issues in these places not a combination of non sex segregated toilets and poor law enforcement around sexual assaults.

poor law enforcement around sexual assaults

Compared to how well the US and UK do in prosecuting sexual assault perpetrators....?

Is it that they think western civilisations have evolved past needing sex segregated toilets?

Not sure... a significant number of people seem to believe that transwomen are the same as women because what determines that is gender identity...

It’s a bit nonsensical though that, gender identity isn’t what determines risk re sexual assault, it’s sex and gendered socialisation.

Also we keep being told that gender identity is different to gendered socialisation so many claiming TWAW will also acknowledge male socialisation...

So sex doesn’t change, male socialisation is still present but identity somehow makes those things unimportant when it comes to safety? Illogical IMO and it’s more likely this is simply because these people don’t want to be reminded of their sex at any cost - not a good reason IMO.

Then you have the people who take the safety of sex segregation for granted and don’t recognise the importance because ‘I’ve never had problems’

Then you have the misogynists who just want to destroy protections.

Some or all of these people will not have considered the inconsistency of unisex for the west but sex segregation for others, some of them will think ‘we don’t need it anymore’ but some of them are horrendously racist (often some of the misogynists) and recognise the inconsistency but believe that foreign peoples are closer to animals than human in culture.

(Bit of an aside, but Confessions don't apologise for the DM link in this instance. This is actually a quality piece of journalism, with a genuine social conscience, and the DM should be proud of having published it. It's the sort of thing that wouldn't have looked out of place in the Guardian of old.)

Compared to how well the US and UK do in prosecuting sexual assault perpetrators....?

Yes the US and UK need to do better but its not comparable to the issues they have with rape and sexual assault in India or parts of Africa.

And its not just about convictions. We have cctv, security guards, toilet attendents social conscience. In India people turn a blind eye and then say as punishment the girl needs to marry the attacker. The issue runs deeper than sex segregated toilets.

You've also got to consider when we use public toilets in this country compared to third world countries. Women in third world countries could travel alone for a couple of days just to get health care. During the entire journey they are vulnerable to attack. Put them in quiet enclosed space with men and yes, your going to have attacks. Not really the same as popping for a wee in nandos toilet is it.

I don't think rapists anywhere have much social conscience.

@Procrastinator1

Not rapists the general public. If a man came into a toilet and started attacking someone would you just walk away?

How much difference would CCTV and security guards make in a world where there's nothing wrong or surprising about a group of men following a woman to the toilets.

I am a man so I only know about this through family/friends, but don't women often go to the toilets to escape from a man who won't leave you alone? So much more fun when he can come with you.

So whereismymind do you agree with self id in this country? This would allow a man who self identifies as a woman to use the women's toilets or a woman who identifies as a man to use the gents, or perhaps a man to access women's refuges? And, if so, will our western social conscience protect women from attack?

"Sexual assault is rife. Many women here say they dare not use toilets at night, some even using nappies, for fear of sexual assault with one case a week reported to MSF."

Female soldiers on US Army bases in Iraq faced a similar predicament. Rape and sexual assault were rife there also, so in sweltering temperatures, women would often refuse fluids in an effort to avoid having to visit the toilets alone.

No I don't agree with self id. But I don't think toilets are the issue and people keeping going on about them makes a joke of more important aspects of the self id issue.

What's to stop me mugging you in a ladies toilet. Well cctv will see me go in. A toilet attendent may be there to witness/stop me. A security guard may be close by to stop me, apprehend me as I make my get away. The same would apply to a male attacker, whether he is allowed to be in there or not.

Yes I have retreated into the ladies to get away from guys in pubs/clubs. But I've also been fallowed into the ladies by a man and been intimidated in the ladies toilets by a woman. I've also been to clubs with mix sex toilets and I can't say it's ever been an issue that I can't 'get away' from men.

Quiet toilets (parks, train station) are dodgy regardless of self id for men and women. Busy toilets (shopping centre, night club) are pretty safe regardless due to the amount of people.

It’s not just the sexual assault aspect which worries me. The rhetoric around ’terfs’ is very violent in and threatening. It’s dehumanising and othering in a way that makes it clear that some women deserve punishment.
I’d worry about one of these violent fantasists in women’s toilets. A look or comment perceived as ‘literal violence’ may well turn into actual violence toward a woman or girl.

I’d worry about one of these violent fantasists in women’s toilets. A look or comment perceived as ‘literal violence’ may well turn into actual violence toward a woman or girl.

That applied anywhere not just in toilets. Look at that incedent at Leicester Square station. Those trans 'women' thought nothing of kicking the living shit out of a guy in the middle of a packed train station.

If someone is that volitile and dangerous they will attack anywhere they don't need to do it in a toilet.