Not only do we need to stop self-ID, we need to row back on some existing laws.

[Macareaux]

Maybe not all in one go.
However,it should not be the case that anyone can change a birth certificate for example. The fact that this is even possible is in part what has led us to where we are. A birth certificate is a factual and legal record and to change it on the basis of how someone feels or the fact that they have worn the clothes supposedly belonging to the opposite sex for two years is beyond crazy but shows you what lobbying can do.

It would be all to easy in this current climate to accept compromises, but I believe we have to push that Overton window firmly back in the other direction.

At the same time we can work to dismantle the sexist stereotypes that see so many young women believing they would be better off as a man.

I quite agree.
The law has no place enshrining falsehood.
We need to protecting trans people from discrimination and male violence. This is not being achieved by the laws we have in place. It all needs to be thought through more carefully and openly, with the interests of all affected groups considered properly.

Hear hear

I agree completely. In years to come we shall be seen as utter buffoons:
despite all our complex computer equipment we are unable to provide an accurate sex-based census, despite our forefathers having produced accurate records for centuries, often carefully handwritten, and requiring lengthy human labour and impressive organisational skills. We've actually shown our generation up, we will be seen to have dropped the baton for census record keeping for future generations.

I agree

Even in adoption birth certs aren’t altered.

Have you read the Hansard transcript that passed the GRA in 2004?

It is worth doing as it is easy to Google.

You will see that NOBODY gets their birth certificate changed by way of 'feelings'. That only those who have been medically diagnosed and made some attempt at physical transition are usually accepted. And all have to be signed off by a doctor.

The GRA debate reports on why doctors also thought this might be a physiological problem in the cases that were signed off.

Either way the decision to change is gatekept by doctors and as a result very few have actually done this.

Only 4990 people have a GRC - the minimum qualification. Under 3000 of those are transwomen. So there are likely around 2000 transwomen (or men as you will say) in the UK maximum who have an altered birth certificate saying they are a woman.

The original certificate is not destroyed and is linked to the new one and the two can be seen together for legitimate purposes such as a police investigation.

Put those 2000 against the 500,000 who want to use self ID and no sniff of a doctor to do the same thing and you see why that is the immediate threat here.

The major change to the GRA is half a million non medically justified birth certificates.

As one of the holders of an altered birth certificate for 14 years now I doubt the government will demand it back. But if the doctors changed their criteria for awarding one and said I did not qualify I would accept that.

I am perfectly fine with a doctor being the one to make the decision and whatever they say I would comply with.

However, that is not the looming possibility. If self ID comes in the gate will be blown up and the doctors pensioned off and any man will only have to say they want to be a woman and that will be that.

I obviously have a vested interest here so it is unfair of me to say what you should do. But right now as I see it the real threat is not the GRA that exists as of today but the one that might exist by this time next year.

Stop that happening then worry about the 2000 like me. I might even back you up on that depending on reasoning of the doctors.

Because if half a million self ID in over coming months you will not find it easy to repeal the GRA. As I doubt most of the new BC owners who have self ID will be willing to even consider handing it back.

Definitely. Repeal the GRA, amend the EA to make single sex spaces a duty.

I cautiously agree but with the proviso that anyone who already has a GRC should be entitled to retain it (and the legal rights it affords) for their lifetime. It’s not their fault if the lawmakers of the time were misguided and there are

Fair compromise Betty

Oh yes that's ok.

Not Paris Lwes then.

Couldn't agree more. Those that already have a GRC and new birth certificate should keep it.

There should be no relaxation of the laws on how people get a different birth certificate or become recognised as living life as the other sex.

The conflation of gender/sex should be completely separated.

There needs to be some assessment of how many people want to live as the opposite sex and why and how this should be accommodated before any changes are made that erode the rights of women.

Where has the figure of 500,000 come from?

The provisions of the EA for single-sex spaces should be strengthened.

The current safeguarding laws should be strengthened.

I think it is perfectly reasonable for people to have to provide some evidence if they are trying to access restricted rights and spaces they may not otherwise qualify for.

We do this in all sorts of other situations. Prescription drugs, social benefits.

homefromthehills

Thanks, that’s an interesting post. My personal view is that the GRA does need repealing, however I agree with Betty that provision (and very good provision at that) needs to be made for people who already have a GRC. None of this is their fault and I certainly don’t think anybody should be handling back documentation or rights they already have.

Under no circumstances should false birth certificates and ‘rights’ be being handed to narcissists and misogynists on their say so though.

I agree Macareaux.

As for those that already have a GRC, if they are keeping it there still needs to be certain restrictions, such as their statistics should be included in male stats, and they shouldn’t be permitted on all women shortlists or in women’s sports, etc. It should also be legal to restrict their access to women’s spaces in some circumstances.

I appreciate the genuine nature of the suggestion that those with a GRC already should be able to keep them.

But not sure in practice I could do that. It would feel unfair elevating myself above others who missed the cut. There are about 200 or so transsexual cases a year in the UK. It would be wrong getting in ahead of them just by virtue of being older.

As noted the birth certificate is the real issue here - the GRC is pretty meaningless in of itself. I doubt any activist out there is desperate for this certificate. It was noted above even Paris Lees has not bothered

But it serves as the only application form for a birth certificate so that will be what matters.

I believe that there are genuine cases where birth certificates should be changed. Whilst they are not (I emphasise) in any way trans - there are intersex people who have used the GRA to change their birth certificates. And they have a clear medical reason to do so that is much better defined than we transsexuals do.

They have to be protected by whatever is done with the legislation. Regardless of what is done about transsexuals. It would be unfair to disadvantage them when this is none of their fault.

This is why I favour the concept of birth certificate changes being done only by consent of a doctor when they believe there are legitimate medical reasons to do so. As is the case now.

Their reputation then rests on any miscalculation.

Currently that means they include anyone they diagnose as transsexual. But nothing else transgender related.

I am perfectly willing to accept doctors deciding that they no longer should include transsexuals either.

Possibly new evidence has come to light since 2004 that overturns that which was cited as the basis for doing this with transsexuals in the parliamentary debate when it passed to law. It did seem a bit vague at the time but 14 years later they might be more clear one way or another as to cause.

As long as those who are intersex do not lose this opportunity then I will abide by any medical opinion on transsexuals to be removed.

But for me the principle is that it should be up to doctors. Not up to any person to declare their own sex.

A birth certificate stopped being factual when lesbian couples were allowed to register the birth together. Not that I think that is a bad thing. Out of interest, does the female that gave birth definitely get recorded as the ‘mother’? And her wife the ‘parent 2’?

Not much to add except agreement. We are in this mess because women showed empathy and accepted this change. I suspect very few of those 4990 people with a GRC hanged their certificates from female to male

Thank you for your considered posts homefromthehills. I certainly agree that intersex people are an exception.

Changed

A birth certificate stopped being factual when lesbian couples were allowed to register the birth together. Not that I think that is a bad thing. Out of interest, does the female that gave birth definitely get recorded as the ‘mother’? And her wife the ‘parent 2’?

Yes that is correct- with no mention of the father.

All birth certificates where a semen donor was involved are factually incorrect too. There is a legal presumption of pater est quem nuptiae demonstrant but the presumption will have been displaced.

I'm scared by some of these proposals, I really am. The far-reaching impact would be colossal.

That aside, thank you @homefromthehills. You write with purpose and compassion, and also with understanding of the GC perspective. I really appreciate that. It's really important to get your opinion; I do want to engage with trans gender people but it can oft be
futile.

1. Recognise sex universally. Immutable.
2. Define sex accurately and assign correct terms: female/male. Afford rights accordingly.
3. Acknowledge 'gender' for those who wish it, using DIFFERENT terms to those of biological sex : feminine /masculine. Don't care
4. Acknowledge EVERY person's right to reject gender and not be categorised with others on this characteristic.

=reality.
Everybody has an unchangeable record of their sex.
Rights are accorded as per sex.
Those who want to be a gender can have one, much like religion, but many or most people are not part of it and it is unfeasible to sort a population by a characteristic most don't even possess. No one has gender imposed upon them and recorded.

Agree that intersex people are a special case and need special provision.