Debbie Hayton in today's Times

[Igneococcus]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/self-identification-will-not-help-transgender-people-n2pm780wx?shareToken=efc7d0347bb80e1f8789b79246549da6

Brilliant article!

I'll keep an eye on the comments (and my fingers on the keyboard)

I agree - great article. I think this point in particular is important:

The law may be able to compel grudging toleration but it can never guarantee acceptance.

It strikes me that there's a clear difference between gay rights legislation over the past 20 years (the repeal of Section 28 and the introduction of same sex marriage) and the proposed trans rights legislation. The difference is that the idea of marriage had already been redefined in society: the idea of heterosexual marriage as the foundation of a stable society was passé long before same sex marriage was recognised. This has little to do with gay rights: from the 1970s onwards heterosexual couples were increasingly living in unwedded bliss. Marriage became a choice rather than an obligation.

The same cannot be said for the idea of women and men as categories: sex has not been redefined in the social imagination the way marriage was. Even the popular idea that women are now legally and socially equal to men hasn't reconceived 'men' and 'women' as interchangeable or equivalent.

The heterosexual majority had already abandoned marriage as necessary before gay rights activism for same sex marriage. The heterosexual majority has made no such manoeuvre with respect to sex class - and recognition of gender identity isn't quite the same thing.

So yes, we do need legislation that protects trans people from discrimination, but self-ID probably won't lead to acceptance. I think Debbie Hayton is absolutely right.

The piece is written from a trans perspective and it is good to give an alternative trans view. But it still ignore why women would only grudgingly accept at best. This isn’t just about non-trans abusing the law for their own end. This is also about trans who have been through the process, had surgery, jumped through all the hoops. They are still not women, they still have an essentially males physiology which confirms height, strength, muscle power which they can use over women both in sport and in society. They still do not have female biology and including them in considerations of female biology (if we are even allowed to discuss such a thing) dilutes the needs women have and the needs for adjustments to overcome these. Just look at the cervical cancer campaign - including trans has diluted the message to women to the point that many now would not understand its relevance to them. That change in message may cost women their lives.

I have a lot of time for Debbie on the whole and they was a well reasoned argument rasing what are the actual concerns around self id and the consultation. If that had been what was being discussed online then that would have probably been on the whole a reasoned debate with practical solutions found. Unfortunately what seems to habe happened is that more extreme views on both sides have steered the debate which as now gone way beyond what the original consultation was for. Maybe as the consultation goes on people will start to realise that it can only. Address one thing the GRA and will. Focus on that and making sure safe guards are in place. My own position is that people should not have to pay to get a GRA that we don't need a panel as this if the correct evidence is presented an admin thing. It is what evidence is. Needed to back up the claim you are the opersite sex that I think this will come down too. I am interested to hear what people thing would be enough evidence. I am OK with medical evidence being used as long as the wait to gain that evidence is not too long the wait to see a gender clinic is 2 years so unless the waiting time is significantly dropped this is hard to get. Could there be something like seeing a psychiatrist locally which used to happen to access services be used with other forms of id. In. The end this will come down to money and what the cheapest option will be will probably be what we end up with. Its why the GRC is a payed for assessment and had certain things in it so it would not cost the government.
Anyway it would be good to talk about practical solutions to how things could be changed and safegurding fears meet with correct checks that men could not. Just do this on a wim

There is nothing extreme about preserving the - limited - women's rights we currently have. The extremism is coming from one side only.

Women wanting to preserve the ability to gather together to talk about issues affecting women due to their biology and preserve hard won protection from the very real risk of male violence should not be seen as extremists.

That it can be referred to as such reminds me of the Nazi propaganda technique of "if you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed"

I note it's transwomen like Bespin and Kristina Harrison who would have us believe they are allies that are peddling this propaganda

I am a woman, I am not an extremist

Another thank you Debbie.

I liked this article. A rare voice of reason.

bespin

“Extreme voices on both sides.”

Are you saying that women gathering to speak about how to protect their rights which are already enshrined in law is extremist? I’m sure you can’t possibly mean that so please can you explain what the ‘extreme voices’ you refer to are please?

I do not consider myself an extremist.

Remember when they say 'extreme voices on both sides' they are comparing women who talk about the fact that many men who say they are women are fetishists, which is true, with men who tell women they should be raped and set on fire because they reject innate gender. It's Trumpesque.

I can't read Bespin's posts. Why are your full stops always in the wrong place? And you just give a wall of text.

Anyway, good article by Debbie but I no longer believe it is possible for any male to become a woman. Things have gone beyond that. They should certainly not be competing in women's sports and being transferred to women's prisons no matter what they believe in their minds.

Bespin current waiting time for NHS Adult Mental Health Services in Manchester is 7 years.

SEVEN YEARS.

And even kids turning 18 and aging out of Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services have to join that same 7 year wait list.

I doubt very much that Manchester is unique, so seeing an NHS psychiatrist instead of a Gender Clinic would likely make the GRC process longer, rather than shorter.

I think Debbie has a very clear, well-reasoned, voice in this debate. I appreciate this article greatly. Thanks, and thanks for sharing.

I don't see how we can have a system in place that allows transsexuals with a GRC into women and girls spaces, but keeps male people out?

And as other posters have said, transsexuals with a GRC still have male bodies and male socialisation, therefore potential can cause distress if they occupy women and girls spaces.