Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Alternative Definitions of 'Woman'?

703 replies

Dragoncake · 04/07/2018 08:15

Do you disagree with the definition of 'woman' as 'adult human female'?

If you disagree, what is your own definition of the word?

A woman is....what exactly?

Is there even a definition? Or is 'woman' simply indefinable in your view?

On the 'A Woman is an Adult Human Female' thread I asked those who disagree to provide their alternative definition of the word.

Several people engaged, but nobody seemed able to do this.

If you have one, please post your alternative definition here. Thanks.

OP posts:
YourMajestyJ · 04/07/2018 12:29

Can a woman, an adult human female, father a child?

Offred · 04/07/2018 12:30

(And ‘lesbian’ as well)

ALittleBitofVitriol · 04/07/2018 12:30

Changing the language so that a definition is less clear, and means two mutually exclusive things, so that communication is rendered impotent. Yes, you should be so proud. Confused

YourMajestyJ · 04/07/2018 12:31

Woman is a social term, female is a statement of biology.

Woman is what we use for an adult human female, as opposed to using girl for a female child.

RedToothBrush · 04/07/2018 12:33

I got a first for the expanded version btw, just so you know

Getting a first doesn't mean you aren't remarkably naive and stupid. It just means good at spouting bollocks in an essay for marks.

It is possible to be 'wrong' even if you have a first. Shock horror.

I hold a degree in communication and history. It included modules on politics, gender and propaganda.

Others here are also well qualified in a variety of different fields. If not more qualified.

But tbh I've learnt far more from real life and seeing how these things work on a day to day basis in real life settings, not an academic one in which theology and ideology is suspended from reality.

As a rule learning why people think it's ok to blow other people up or otherwise physically harm them, is a good starting point for understanding society.

Offred · 04/07/2018 12:34

If there are good reasons to change the legal definitions of the terms (from being based on sex class to being based on gender identity);

Woman
Female
Homosexual

Then please present them.

HarryLovesDraco · 04/07/2018 12:35

'A woman is an adult human female or anyone who identifies as such'

identifies as such

How can one identify as a thing one is not?

Can I identify as having brown eyes? Being 6ft tall? Being Asian?

I am none of those things. I am also objectively female, just as I objectively have blue eyes and pale skin. Being female is objective fact. How can someone who is not female, identify as female if that person is objectively not female?

How is that a logically consistent position?

Offred · 04/07/2018 12:36

Social use is neither here nor there to most people BTW... it’s become an issue socially only because of attempts to change the legal definitions and the adoption of the redefinition by institutions ahead of proposed/desired changes.

miri1985 · 04/07/2018 12:36

If the definition of woman is adult human female and anyone who identifies as such and man is adult human male and anyone who identifies as such, then isn't a trans person included in both definitions?

Can someone be both a woman and a man and still benefit from protections on the basis of sex if we are suggesting that their gender entitles them to be in both categories?

OldCrone · 04/07/2018 12:36

The changes being requested are legal changes re discrimination and human rights laws and so the discussion we are having relates to the definition of ‘woman’ in this context.

If "woman" becomes simply a social category, then there can be no sex-based protections for women and girls.

ErrolTheDragon · 04/07/2018 12:38

I meant to also say, in relation to ' I prefer to write the dictionary on the basis of how words are actually used in reality'

In reality, most people mean 'adult human female' when they use the word 'woman'. The fact that some people misuse a word does not mean that the misuse has to be accepted.

Pratchet · 04/07/2018 12:39

Rat is proven wrong by women and this is not to be borne. Red, Offred and others: killer logic.

RedToothBrush · 04/07/2018 12:40

Someone I went to university with and got a first didn't know if a penguin was a bird or a fish.

We took the piss out of him a lot. He was not the sharpest tool in the draw.

LangCleg · 04/07/2018 12:40

changes to language have to start somewhere in order for them to achieve wide enough usage to be worthy of update. They start with people. Perhaps people like me

Right. Finally. Thank you for conceding that you personally wish to redefine the word woman to some nebulous category that lacks reference to material reality and that this is a political aim.

This would seem an appropriate time to remind you that a few months ago 25% of the population agreed with you about this and that most recently this figure has fallen to 18%.

I am unsure why such an extremist position requiring a fundamental re-organisation of society, and which is supported by less than one fifth of the population, is the best route take.

Offred · 04/07/2018 12:40

Rat, can you understand why gay men and lesbians might be concerned about homosexuality being redefined in law to include people who are heterosexual?

Why women particularly might be concerned about woman and female being redefined in law to include members of the opposite sex?

BertrandRussell · 04/07/2018 12:44

What about "ladydick"? Is that a word that needs to be enshrined in law?

Dragoncake · 04/07/2018 12:46

Just coming in quickly to catch up.

Thanks to someonesrealname who posted their definition at 0940. It seems to have been overlooked:

Woman: "any adult human whose behaviour and appearance do not satisfy contemporary cultural and social notions of what makes one 'a real man'"

We now have three alternative definitions in total:

RatRolyPoly:
"Woman = an adult human female, or one who identifies as such"

Argumentativefeminist at 0852
"Woman" is basically a social construct (Massive paraphrase there, which I hope you don't feel misrepresents your views. See AF's posts for more detail.)

OP posts:
KimCheesePickle · 04/07/2018 12:47

HotRockerWed 04-Jul-18 11:55:04

“What in that case is the point of joining that category? Where is the value in fighting for the right to become part of a category that you render meaningless just by doing so? People don’t generally expend such large amounts of energy and resources ob something that has no value at the end of it, I mean people don’t break into Smyths to Nick all the monopoly money, so what is the value?”

The endgame of this isn’t that we’re going to have single gender spaces as opposed to single sex spaces. It’s that we’ll have UNISEX spaces, which means full access of men to women. It is purely a men’s rights movement to dismantle existing safeguarding structures and separate facilities. Women gained the first public toilets 150 (ish) years ago, enabling them to go further afield from their home than their bladder allowed, after a hard fight. Men immediately burned them down. This is no different. No different at all.

YourMajestyJ · 04/07/2018 12:49

Woman = any adult human whose behaviour and appearance do not satisfy contemporary cultural and social notions of what makes someone a ‘real man’.

Reverse this and I, a woman, would be defined as a man. Bollocks to that.

Offred · 04/07/2018 12:51

Yes, the aim is to reorganise society around gender identity rather than sex.

At the moment sex segregated spaces et al are unigender (gender neutral) because they are organised around sex class and gender is irrelevant. What is being lobbied for is that these things be organised around segregation based on gender identity and they will become unisex because sex will be irrelevant.

The discussion is about whether gender identity is a better way of organising society and I don’t believe it is.

speakingwoman · 04/07/2018 12:57

@ratrolypoly

your tone in this thread is quite playful/teasing - you know no-one gives a shit if you got a first and I suspect you don't give a shit either - is this a reaction to being hassled on other threads? You're not an undergraduate philosophy student convining the other students that reality doesn't exist after too many vodkas - you're brighter than that.

Anway, as to your substance, I don't get why woman is about whoever fancies adopting the term whereas female is all biology and sex. If words are so random why is it that way round not the other way round?

CruellaDeVilsEvilSister · 04/07/2018 12:58

I'm looking at these definitions above and I'm no longer sure if I'm a woman or a man? Not the sort of existential crisis I imagined for a Wednesday afternoon.

Pratchet · 04/07/2018 12:59

I don't actually this he is tbh

FermatsTheorem · 04/07/2018 12:59

Okay - warning, massively long post ahead (but I don't think it can be done in any shorter way). I'd like to thank argumentativefeminist for giving this a go, when most on her/his (I don't know how he/she identifies) side of the argument don't try, and I'm going to quote this and try to "translate" it for those who prefer their philosophy in "plain language" (many aeons ago I was an academic philosopher, albeit in the Anglo-American analytical tradition rather than the continental one).

Following Foucault, though he doesn't speak on gender specifically, and Butler, gender is a concept created by the institutions of society to fit it's needs. Hence "woman" emerged as a way of classifying people with vaginas. There's a couple of arguments here of why we shouldn't follow this classification. One, a surprising number of people are born intersex - How can we classify them into a gender category? Surely, we should really be allowing them to choose what feels most natural to them. So why cant other people do that? Secondly, and more abstractly, the relationship between signifier ("woman"/"tree") and signified (👩/🌳) is an arbitrary one. Plenty of signifier/signified relationships change over time and many feminist linguists (e.g. Cixous) advocate for challenging these relationships where it seems that they benefit or uphold patriarchal institutions. I would argue that the gender binary as it was originally conceived benefits patriarchal institutions, so I advocate for altering the relationship between "woman" and 👩 to include people who don't fit the traditional physical characteristics for "woman". At the end of the day, I can't see that this in itself causes any harm, although I understand that some people have concerns about certain legislations etc., but I dont think thats ultimately what's being debated here.

The way I used to gloss Foucault for first year undergrads was by way of a quick and dirty analogy: Both Bacon (16th/17th C) and Foucault (20th C) were fascinated by (among other things) the connection between scientific knowledge and political power, but there's a sense in which they looked down the telescope from opposite ends. For Bacon, possessing knowledge gave/reinforced political power (make better gunpowder and understand the mathematics of ballistics and you have better canons for your army). For Foucault, having political power enabled you to define what counted as scientific knowledge (e.g. define mental illness in such a way that you could incarcerate your political opponents in mental asylums).

So that's one part of the story - for Foucault and writers who follow/borrow from him, knowledge isn't absolute, it arises in a social context, serves political ends, and can be changed according to political needs.

The second strand to the story (I think) is that language can be seen in a multitude of ways. It clearly partly helps us to describe and talk about the external world - I want to tell you there's a wolf outside the cave, so you'd best not go out. But it also fills a social and political function - it is shaped by, and shapes, how we can talk about political alliances, power imbalances (and indeed ways in which we can't talk about them - if you don't have the words, you can't say the unsayable - something that arises time and time again about whether oppressed groups have the necessary language to name and talk about their oppression, or whether that language has been taken away from them by the ruling class).

So I think what argumentative is trying to say is that "woman" isn't just a word labelling an uncontentious biological category (large-immobile-gamete-producing member of the human race with the ability to gestate and lactate offspring), it's a political category. Politics/social power imbalances told us why we needed the word in the first place (why not just "human"?) and attach a whole load of other baggage to the word (gendered expectations about behaviour, dress, place in society) - and in fact (following Foucault) there's no independent "scientific" real-world meaning which exists in some sort of pure form, stripped of all the extra political baggage.

Therefore (and here's the real sleight of hand in my books) the word is up for grabs to be redefined in what I personally see as a political power grab - people with power (middle class white males with a university education which gives them access to po-mo word salad) are now free to cut the word completely adrift from its reference to "pertaining to the class of humans capable of gestating and lactating" and leave only the extraneous political baggage of performance of femininity, submission, subordination.

I'm not sure argumentative is entirely consistent in her/his approach, however, as this sort of Foucauldian analysis relies on understanding language as a social phenomenon (correctly so, though I think that questions of what in the real world language refers to are more important than some Foucauldians believe). However, in later posts argumentative seems to go with the idea that this all works at at the level of individuals, not society as a whole, which is wrong both as an understanding of how language works, and in terms of understanding the practical consequences.

For instance, argumentative holds that it really is possible for someone born biologically female to completely identify out of womanhood. But this doesn't work at an individual level - see for example the tragic and awful case of the poor transman who was raped by a taxi driver, and in the subsequent police interview said "but I kept telling him over and over again that I was a man." Nor does it work at a political level - see the thread on "why can't transmen inherit a peerage?" Those with political power make damn sure they keep it. So, self ID fine for anyone identifying "down" the power ladder into womanhood, not so acceptable for people trying to identify "up" the power ladder into manhood. And what we see very clearly here is that the social consensus view of meanings ultimately trumps the individual assertion view of meanings. Very much at the level of "war is diplomacy by other means."

So who benefits from allowing people to pretend that this is happening at the level of individual assertions about one's own identity? The answer is pretty clearly men. And who loses out by having the language needed to describe their oppression stripped away? Again, pretty clearly women.

The Foucauldian analysis, it seems to me, is right, but not in the way argumentative thinks. It's right because it articulates the way language gets co-opted into power struggles on a society-wide level. Where argumentative goes wrong is to think this gives a licence to apply this at the level of individuals making assertions about their own personal identities which then are completely anchorless - not rooted in the external world, not rooted in social consensus about how we should categorise that external world.

And of course that's what the mantra of TWAW is supposed to achieve - it's a blunt instrument to artificially construct a social consensus. Equally that's what makes it so politically important for women - old-fashioned cunty women - to resist the artificial construction of this social consensus.

Top marks for staying power if you made it this far, and apologies for the wall of text, but I couldn't think of any way of condensing this down!

Pratchet · 04/07/2018 13:01

Interestingly, yet another effort by women to get this new definition of what they are nailed down, ending in abject failure by those who are so imperious that we accept it.

Swipe left for the next trending thread