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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

GRA consultation is live. Let's get reading

108 replies

Anlaf · 03/07/2018 16:05

www.gov.uk/government/consultations/reform-of-the-gender-recognition-act-2004

OP posts:
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 03/07/2018 20:35

This line kind of leapt out at me (from section 114)

^As an example, refusing a transwoman with or without a GRC access to a
female toilet33 in a pub is likely to be unlawful34,^

Anlaf · 03/07/2018 20:45

V good spot Its

The references from that are below.

33 There are a range of serious criminal offences that can be charged against anyone of any gender who sexually harasses,
threatens, attempts to assault or voyeuristically observes or records anyone else of any gender in a toilet. so we have to wait to get our vulvas filmed eh
34 www.lawcentres.org.uk/policy/news/news/kirklees-law-centre-wins-landmark-transgender-discrimination-case

The second link is a County Court decision and the piece does not say whether the person had a GRC or not, although they had undergone SRS.

OP posts:
SardinesAreYum · 03/07/2018 20:52

Just how upset is "so upset"?

A conundrum indeed.

ijustwannadance · 03/07/2018 21:01

"Some young trans people take their own life or harm themselves."

Some young people take their own life and harm themselves.

Can't believe they have defined sex as being assigned at birth by a medical practitioner.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 03/07/2018 21:23

Some young people take their own life and harm themselves

Indeed. Without comparator numbers the statistics don't show that transpeople are the most oppressed.people on the planet.

How many non-trans people self-harm?
How many women have upsetting things said to them?

Mossandclover · 03/07/2018 22:02

Some of this reminds me of a consultation that stated “unlawful exclusions should never be used without a formal planning process”. And the last consultation I responded to was full of typos and spelling errors. I do wander where they find people who write these documents. I despair that they can’t even understand the importance of discriminating between sex and gender.

Mossandclover · 03/07/2018 22:03

Then again I think they do understand the difference which is why it is being confused. I am guessing ‘experts’ from Stonewall, Mermaids etc helped in the writing of this document.

NorthernJugni · 03/07/2018 22:07

Wow, that was long but I've done it!

Seriously though, other things in life where you have to endure tedious & intrusive bureaucracy:

  • Post and pay recorded delivery with return to provide my original passport just to merge my pension account, cos of a mistake THEY made....
  • pay £25 and endure intrusive HR interviews when I want to alter my working hours by 30 mins to help with my illness
  • Provide passport, two proofs of address, bank statement and in-depth info about my life and household to sign on, including having a dude come to my house and ask personal questions about my housemate in case I am a fraud.
  • To get married- passport, photos, proof of address, photo ID

I know it's a pain and time consuming but providing paper evidence just part of life? Should we all be demanding we don't have to provide evidence etc for stuff? I'd love that!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 03/07/2018 22:09

Something else that struck me, is that they have said they have not done any impact assessments and that they won't until they have decided what will happen Hmm

PencilsInSpace · 03/07/2018 22:52

That's my bus reading sorted for the next couple of weeks.

I've printed it out so I can scribble in the margins.

We have 15 1/2 weeks:

3 July Consultation opens
(3 weeks)
24 July House rises
(summer recess - 6 weeks)
4 September House returns
(9 days)
13 September House rises
(conference - nearly 4 weeks)
9 October House returns
(10 days)
19 October Consultation closes 11pm

TerfAndSerf · 03/07/2018 23:42

www.gov.uk/government/consultations/reform-of-the-gender-recognition-act-2004

Another clicky link and helpful bump

Anlaf · 04/07/2018 09:50

Bump with some more useful thoughts on the consultation definitions (there is a lot of this on Twitter this morn)

twitter.com/MMMMMMeow/status/1014421079731949569?s=19

OP posts:
Angryresister · 04/07/2018 11:32

Did it , but probably not very thought out as I am so fucking angry that we have to spend our time on this nonsense. I think I covered quite a lot that has been discussed here. I wish I'd put something about the fact that we all have to undergo intrusive questions to gain acces to eg necessary benefits etc. So why should these special people be exempt from all that. I used sex in capitals a lot. Gave examples of where safeguarding is being ignored, and crime statistics skewed. Compared it to religion. We can tolerate others beliefs but it doesn't make them true and we can't be forced to believe a lie. Tried to suggest that the whole thing should be tightened up more and that not even as GRC should allow men access to womens and lesbians groups

OldCrone · 04/07/2018 12:01

Just a reminder that we have 15 weeks to do this consultation - it doesn't close until 19th October.

Don't rush it. Read on here and elsewhere and take time to refine your arguments and make sure you make the points you think are important.

SisyphusWasGenderCritical · 04/07/2018 17:48

Does it seem right that this should start just at the close of the parliamentary session? Shouldn't it be active in a period when MPs can be contactable?

TrumpsToddlerTantrums · 04/07/2018 18:27

Sisyphus I remember being taught that recess was the time an MP returned to their constituency, theoretically more accessible to us lowly constituents...

OlennasWimple · 04/07/2018 18:39

recess was the time an MP returned to their constituency, theoretically more accessible to us lowly constituents..

Except it's also summer, when MPs take a (well deserved, in most cases) holiday and are less contactable. Same with journalists - and in any case, Brexit and World Cup is dominating the new coverage for the time being.

It's almost as if someone wanted it to be a bit under the radar.... Hmm

TrumpsToddlerTantrums · 04/07/2018 19:44

I'm not disagreeing Oleanna, flippancy doesn't work in print. My MP has mastered the art of the metaphorical pat on the head, and " run along now dear, don't worry your little head about a thing, leave that to us manly Men who know best" approach.

What happens once the consultation is complete? Is a new Act written and then voted on etc?

SisyphusWasGenderCritical · 04/07/2018 20:13

But.... it is also through the school holidays, which end in August in Scotland and in September in England. That seriously reduces the opportunities to 1) make parents aware of the consultation 2) provide enough information so as to allow them to properly complete the consultation.

This issue is full of jargon and it takes considerable effort to understand all the issues.

OlennasWimple · 04/07/2018 20:48

What happens next depends on the outcome of the consultation (and the wider political landscape)

The government will review the responses and then formally respond, setting out what they intend to do next (either legislate to make changes, or leave things as is, perhaps with some new non-statutory guidance).

If they decide to do something that requires legislation, the government will need to draft a bill and then bring it to Parliament. Most of Parliament's time is taken up with Brexit matters at the moment, so finding space on the work schedule could be tricky, especially if it's believed to be contentious (because the government doesn't have a majority, and will want to use their good will to get through stuff like Brexit rather than this). This is when MPs and the Lords will debate the provisions in detail and get to vote on them. So any actual change could be months and months and months away yet.

Yes, school holidays reduces the time for people to analyse and consider and consider the proposals, particularly groups that might want to meet to discuss them and organisations that might want to ask their membership for their views. I suspect that is why the consultation period is longer than the standard 12 weeks (though not sure that the extra three weeks really helps, given how busy the back to school period is for many)

PersonWithAVulva · 05/07/2018 10:48

How do you enforce the exemptions allowed under the EA if someone's documentation states they are a sex different from that at birth?

Quite. I made this point on the questionaire thing, when they said (I think it was on the shared accommodation part) that service providers could basically ask to see a GRC. No they fucking can't, and its so disingenuous to say they can.

MsBeee · 06/07/2018 10:06

The more I try to understand, the more I am confused. If the starting point is trans women are women, then what is the point of the consultation?

Its a done deal, if that is the definition of a woman??

Cooroo · 06/07/2018 13:05

Just spent the morning filling this in. I hadn't read the thread(s) and just did it cold, putting in all my concerns. I didn't read the 'easy' version which sounds horrendous. Let's just hope someone actually reads it.

qumquat · 06/07/2018 14:38

Placemarking. The whole thing seems pretty overwhelming. Thank you to all who are trying to unpick it. It's hard to respond to questions efectively when you disagree with the premise of the questions.