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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can we call ourselves feminists if we buy fast fashion?

70 replies

UglyCathKidstonBag · 30/06/2018 15:58

I went to a food festival today and got speaking to someone handing out leaflets about fast fashion.

80% of the people who work in the garment industry in places like India, Bangladesh, Cambodia etc., are women aged 18-35.

They are working extreme hours with poor pay, terrible conditions (little ventilation, exposure to harmful chemicals, lack of water, poor sanitation) and many are experiencing malnutrition and cases of collapse are seen in most factories daily.

I didn’t get to speak to the woman for long as my DC were desperate for the loo and she was gone when we got back but she asked me this:

“Can we call ourselves feminists if we buy fast fashion?”

OP posts:
thornyhousewife · 01/07/2018 08:48

Yeah this is an interesting question.

Although I imagine it applies to most mass production and this makes me wonder why fast fashion in particular has been singled out as non-feminist.

How come?

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 01/07/2018 09:03

Puddle, you criticize me as a woman on a very low income "because I want cheap fashionable clothes."

Where do you get that the point is fashionable clothes. I need any clothes. I probably spend less than £100 a year on clothes. I live in £3 leggings and charity shop tops.

You say "I could buy less fashionable a year out of season clothes but want this now." If you think you can get £5 tops more cheaply a year later you've never shopped in bottom rung clothes shops.

Comparing my need for clothing to a man's "need" for sex is crap. Clothing is as necessary as food, and a certain standard of clothing is key to getting job interviews or work generally. I need far less clothing now I don't go to an office.

My take on this is that places like the Indian subcontinent are going through an accelerated version of our own Industrial Revolution. Conditions are crap but they'll improve. In the meantime our custom is feeding people, providing work. We have only a very imperfect world. We can only do what's in our power. My own immediate poverty means my choices are limited. It also, however, means that I consume far less than average.

LassWiADelicateAir · 01/07/2018 09:42

Actually, I think there is a very good comparison to prostitution here

My individual right as a poor person to buy something cheaply that I know can personally lead to the trafficking, violence, and enslavement of women is fine because I want cheap fashionable clothes. Therefore not my fault. I could buy less fashionable a year out of season clothes but want this now

That really is nonsense for a number of reasons. Firstly this idea that clothes only last one season. I don't know anyone who treats clothes like that - possibly young affluent teenagers or very, very rich women.

Fashion does not change so dramatically so quickly. If anything it has slowed down- for example there is no one acceptable skirt length. Fashionable hem lengths were uniform up to the 1970s- now there there is no one hem length which is fashionable.

Secondly most clothes aren't bought because of fashion but simply because we have to wear clothes.

moimichme · 01/07/2018 11:43

rememberatime I know this is a bit off-topic, but to answer your question about vegans avoiding leather, I'm afraid a lot of leather is not a food by-product. Much of it comes from India and China and its production is really horrible. There's a section about it in the film Earthlings (although I should warn you, it's very hard to watch).

Most vegans I know have a philosophy of trying to do as little harm to the environment as possible, using charity shops, choosing ethically and locally and naturally when it's possible and practical, making do with the least amount of consumption required...but of course no-one is perfect and you do what you can.

Wrt the thread topic, I agree that totally avoiding fast fashion is easier said than done, for many reasons highlighted above.

OlennasWimple · 01/07/2018 13:29

Thinking more broadly about "buying ethically and environmentally friendly" it's clear that it's over simplistic to call fast fashion a feminist issue.

We all make different decisions about what matters to us (women in sweatshops making organic cotton t-shirts vs properly paid women working from home making clothes with a high component of man-made fibres that consume oil reserves and produces toxic waste)

Maybe the marketing has missed me because I'm not teh target audience, but I don't recall seeing much literature aimed at men criticising their choice of clothing purchases. This feels like yet another stick to beat us vacuous, fashion obsessed women with TBH

Bloodmagic · 01/07/2018 13:31

I have worked in clothing manufacturing, and am a hobbyist in home spinning, weaving and sewing.

What was interesting for me to find out is that EVERYTHING we wear is still made by a lady on a sewing machine. Doesn't matter what it is, if it has a seam someone somewhere had to sit down and sew it. Undies, jumpers, school uniforms, dog costumes, whatever. All sewn by some woman somewhere.

While spinning and weaving and knitting have been mechanized and industrialized, sewing hasn't been (and probably can't be). That means that it's way more efficient as a society for thread, yarn and fabric to be produced in huge factories, but it's no more efficient for clothing to be sewn in a factory than it is for you to sew it at home. It still takes the same man hours (accounting for experience) to sew a garment no matter what. The cutting process is more efficient in bulk (you can cut out 50 pairs of pants in the same time it takes to cut one, with the right machine) but each seam still has to be sewn individually, often has to account for the tolerances at the cutting stage, and with the constantly changing styles that all means that it's basically impossible that sewing will ever be fully or even significantly automated.

The only economic benefit to overseas/bulk manufacturing of sewing is via exploitation.

So it's really BIZARRE to me that I can by a top from Kmart for $4 but I would probably struggle to find the fabric to make it for that price. It's wacky capitalism.

Even if you don't buy cheap clothing the manufacturing chain can be so convoluted (with sub-contractors etc) that your $200 jeans probably are getting made in a sweatshop anyway but the boss is pocketing more profit.

Aside from buying second hand, the best solution is probably DIY, or buy locally made if you don't have the time. It's better anyway to have stuff that actually fits you, and it's honestly not super hard to learn to do basic sewing. Here's a website (www.lekala.co/) that lets you enter your measurements and print out a custom fitted pattern at home (i haven't tried it yet, the software can be hit-and-miss and the styles tend to run on the tight side from what I've read). Otherwise sewing patterns are often available at op shops or people who have them will generally be happy to let you trace a copy.

{I didn't work for a sweatshop, I worked for a small local clothing manufacturer that had to close down due to overseas competition/exploitation).

UpstartCrow · 01/07/2018 13:35

Can we call ourselves feminists if we buy fast fashion?

I'd like to see this thread re-titled
''Discussion about the ethics and morals of fast fashion''.

Women can call themselves feminists even if they are completely trapped in a situation that means they can't do very much to enable change.

I don't buy clothes for fashion at all, but am interested in human rights and the environment.
My fibre of choice would be hemp. We could grow acres of the stuff in the UK and have a textile industry based around it.

QuarksandLeptons · 01/07/2018 13:50

Placemarking

PuddlesOfBud · 02/07/2018 09:29

Puddle, you criticize me as a woman on a very low income "because I want cheap fashionable clothes."

Where do you get that the point is fashionable clothes. I need any clothes. I probably spend less than £100 a year on clothes. I live in £3 leggings and charity shop tops.

I also spend less than a 100 pound on my clothing. I buy it all from charity shops. I can't afford the luxury of new. That does not give me the right to demand cheap clothes.

You say "I could buy less fashionable a year out of season clothes but want this now." If you think you can get £5 tops more cheaply a year later you've never shopped in bottom rung clothes shops.

As I explained, I buy my clothes from charity shops, are they not bottom rung? That's where clothes that are out of season go to die. Hmm I at no point implied that people could just buy out of season clothes from expensive stores. So how exactly did you get that idea? Did I also say they could just swap to cake if bread was bit too expensive? The fact that I am poor does not make me less acountable for my actions.

Comparing my need for clothing to a man's "need" for sex is crap. Clothing is as necessary as food, and a certain standard of clothing is key to getting job interviews or work generally. I need far less clothing now I don't go to an office.My take on this is that places like the Indian subcontinent are going through an accelerated version of our own Industrial Revolution. Conditions are crap but they'll improve. In the meantime our custom is feeding people, providing work. We have only a very imperfect world. We can only do what's in our power. My own immediate poverty means my choices are limited. It also, however, means that I consume far less than average.

The way conditions will improve is ONLY thorugh the women being paid more. In order to do this people have to pay more for their clothes. This is basic, obvious economics. This is exactly why we buy our clothes abroad and don't make them here because we cannot force people to work at near slave wages.

I am not comparing your need for clothes to a man's need for sex. I am comparing the need for clothes that are brand new and "fast fashion" to a man's need for sex. Neither are necessary. I made this all abundantly clear in my last post.

If we can't be expected to buy clothes from charity shops because we are poor, then we really don't want sweat shops to end. Because once the do the cheap clothes will dry up. You're basically saying that poor women from other countries should continue to suffer so we can have cheap clothes. It will not work both ways. People need to support their local charity shops until the "bottom rung" shops realise that we want more from our clothes. Clothes prices will go up but they will still be cheaper than other options.

Also, I don't believe for a second that cheap stores are being propped up by impoverished women buying work wear. They are being propped up by parents who have enough money to spend on letting their children fill up baskets of crap with unicorns and PawPatrol.

HelenaDove · 02/07/2018 17:44

Puddle you do realize that the charity shops in a small market town are not the same as ones in London or other bigger cities. There are not endless racks of every suitable clothing or shoes in every size thats needed.

i dont shop in charity shops. a. because i cant find what i want in there b. have you seen the prices that British Heart Foundation charge?

But i do donate Two recent donations were a small black handbag that originally came from Shoezone and some black boots that originally came from Yours. Which leads me to my next point .............most of my donations several years ago were the larger clothes i dieted my way out of ...............size 18+ upwards. And there is a lot of plus size clothing in our local charity shops because we have a few very successful slimming world classes here. Am i supposed to gain weight so i can fit into the stock that MAY be there in the charity shop on the off chance?

And there are not endless designer pickings in the charity shops in small poorer towns

If you think there are you are either basing that on what youve seen in charity shops in bigger cities or youve been reading too much Grazia (who also base their opinion on what goes on in bigger cities. )

HelenaDove · 02/07/2018 17:46

#i cant find what i NEED in there either.

KimCheesePickle · 02/07/2018 19:29

98% of the clothes I buy (excluding socks and knickers, which I try to darn when they get holes) are from charity shops.

But although I love getting fab clothes at bargain prices, it's not really a structural solution to the problem of the exploitation of garment workers. Someone has to be buying new in the first place in order for them to donate their unwanted goods to the charity shop. I'm merely living in the slipstream of someone else's less-than-ethical choices. Which is much better than chucking lightly worn textiles away - recouping as much life as possible from our goods is always a good thing. Yet upstream we're producing clothes far faster than we can wear them out, and that's where the fast fashion concept comes in.

I've no problem with people who buy classics/necessities from Primark etc, people have to make the best choices they can within the constraints that limit them - which to many lower socio-economic status consumers are significant. What I do have a mahoosive problem with is the churn of the industrialised fashion process and those who buy into it. People who buy up several of those collapsible Primark baskets of gimmicky clothes, wear them 2 or 3 times at most, then put them out for landfill waste collection. That includes those god-awful xmas jumpers Grin

Pretty much all fabrics are bad environmentally as well, synthetic fibres slough off tiny bits of plastic in every wash cycle, being far too small for the waste treatment filters to catch, are discharged into the rivers and seas - just like the microbeads in body care products. One of the main cotton growing regions of the world, Uzbekistan has been decimated by the crop. The Aral Sea has pretty much dried up into a small puddle.

Pics from NASA here

www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/sustainable-fashion-blog/2014/oct/01/cotton-production-linked-to-images-of-the-dried-up-aral-sea-basin

Cotton demands a huge percentage of world pesticide use. Pesticide dust - a nasty carcinogen - has been blown into the local villages. It's also picked by forced labour.

"Fashion" (as opposed to just wearing clothes) is catastrophic environmentally & from a human rights pov.

One final point... those threads that always pop up on MN from time to time about the deep mysteries of those tiny holes you get in tee-shirts... never mind what causes them. Just stitch them up, rather than chucking out the whole item.

moimichme · 03/07/2018 09:39

KimCheesePickle You're right -- buying second-hand isn't the solution. I suppose everyone needs to try and reduce our consumption.

I'm not trying to 'advertise' for her (she's a designer based in Berlin), and it's not really focused on feminism, but I think this video by Justine Leconte about fast fashion is interesting:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ur13KvWoWE

moimichme · 03/07/2018 09:40

^ * not 'the' solution

powershowerforanhour · 03/07/2018 11:07

Interesting post Bloodmagic

QuarksandLeptons · 04/07/2018 13:10

Previous thread on a similar topic

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3236983-Womens-rights-whomademyclothes

lilobrien128 · 24/10/2018 14:44

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Purpleartichoke · 24/10/2018 15:01

Most “ethical” companies don’t bother even producing clothing that accommodates my bust size, let alone do so in a flattering manner. Second hand shopping is similarly challenging. So I end up going with the tried and true fast fashion companies that actually make clothes that will cover my body. I have the financial freedom to make better choices, but my options appear to be personal tailor for bespoke clothing or fast fashion. I do sew some of my own clothing, but don’t have time to do it all myself and then I still need to worry about the manufacturing conditions in the fabric factory.

deepwatersolo · 24/10/2018 16:01

I was quite the fashionista and very much interested in its history and the role fashion plays in art (i‘m quite good in dating paintings and movies based on fashion), so I also ‚collected‘ it. Now my focus has very much changed, not only because of the exploitation of women and children, but also (and mainly, I must admit) because I have realized how our western consumption habits are so detrimental for the ecological balance they put humanity at risk.
So now I try to buy as little as possible and console myself with the thought that if only I can shed those 10-15 pounds I will again have all my cool old clothes at my disposal. Wink

placemats · 24/10/2018 18:44

Imagine, just imagine, if I started a thread can we call ourselves women if we wear mascara?

Personally I don't wear mascara but I have had an eyelash lift. I put a thin layer of petroleum jelly on my lashes.

Are we women because we don't use tampons.

Are we women because we don't change nappies and leave it up to our male partners whilst we catch up on our sleep.

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