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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Janice Turner in the Times today

52 replies

Igneococcus · 30/06/2018 06:47

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/this-gender-battle-is-harder-to-solve-than-brexit-0jc0pn867?shareToken=cf38efff426e9e97b2ec5749c66230c0

OP posts:
Waddlelikeapenguin · 30/06/2018 11:08

Fantastic article & comments are great.
(I also love silver lady & assume she is here somewhere Flowers )

Waddlelikeapenguin · 30/06/2018 11:09

uniquehornsonly that one made me laugh Grin

StealthNinjaMum · 30/06/2018 11:18

I think this is a great article for someone who is just starting to think about this (and even a lurker like me who sort of knows the issues but doesn't have enough confidence that I can write them down correctly.)

I have been meaning to write to my MP for months but find that my letter gets too complicated and I might borrow some of the structure from this. I particularly like the examples in the last few paragraphs of where a risk assessment of a decision that will impact on other protected groups hasn't been done and how the existing law isn't followed.

RogerAllamsFangirl · 30/06/2018 13:21

Another cheer for Silver Lady. I always recommend her comments!

CompeteHalfAMile · 30/06/2018 13:25

I notice the idea put forward in the school girl rate earlier this week is gaining traction in comments, to encourage colonisation of disabled spaces instead of creating trans spaces. Janice ignored the protected characteristic of disability in her article.

SarahAr · 30/06/2018 14:24

Disappointingly, Janice Turner is continuing with her series of transphobic articles in the Times. The transphobic tone of her article and the bias is evident throughout. For example her use of the term "trans lobby".

For months she has repeatedly and incorrectly implied that legal self-id would allow men the legal right to use the women's changing room. And I use changing rooms as this is the example she uses in her articles. Finally, after months of being called out on this, she has changed her tune.

Her argument is now

"Yet a GRC is a serious undertaking: it allows a person to change the biological sex on their birth certificate, a document of public record. A person’s identity is then sealed, only to be opened in circumstances such as criminal investigation: there is no way of proving someone is not the sex they claim to be. Only 5,000 GRCs have been issued to date. But if this process is made easier, with no careful checks for sincerity, the Equality Act exemptions are rendered almost meaningless."

I don't fully follow her logic. She seems to be saying that fake transwomen can be kept out of the women's changing rooms today as the staff can demand to see their birth certificate, which will identify them as male. But if the GRA process is simplified, without careful checks, then all these fake transwomen will have female birth certificates, cannot be positively identified as transwomen, and therefore cannot be excluded from changing rooms under the EA exceptions.

This logic is so flawed it is hard to know where to start.

Every transgender person with the protected characteristic of "gender reassignment" (they intend to, are undergoing, or have undergone a process to reassign their gender) is covered by the EA.

The case law (such as there is) is that transwomen cannot bring a claim for discrimination in being barred from using sensitive areas such as a changing room until they are sufficiently far along the transitioning process. How far is not defined - but will be assessed on a case by case basis.

Once a transwoman reaches this point, the only legal way to discriminate against her is if the situation fits within the exemptions contained in the EA; the discrimination needs to be proportionate and a means to achieve a legitimate aim.

If for example a pre-operative transwoman repeatedly exposes her male genitalia in a communal changing room, causing the other women to complain, and attempts at compromise have failed (e.g. suggesting she uses a cubicle), then it could be proportional to exclude her. [I am not aware of any reports of this situation occurring in the UK]

But the key thing is that if it is not obvious that a women is trans, then I don't see how it can be proportionate to exclude them. The EA does not allow blanket bans on transwomen - for example on an ideological basis. As the EHRC statutory guidance says "Service providers should be aware that where a transsexual person is visually and for all practical purposes indistinguishable from a non-transsexual person of that gender, they should normally be treated according to their acquired gender, unless there are strong reasons to the contrary."

So the idea that simplifying the GRA process will make the EA exemptions meaningless in practice is nonsense. The only situations where the EA exemptions apply today are situations where a problem arises because the person is trans.

CompeteHalfAMile · 30/06/2018 14:27

Everyone has an opinion, no bites here.

I may bite on a cake later.Cake

AdoraBell · 30/06/2018 14:29

Can’t read it on my phone, so will just place mark for now.

littlbrowndog · 30/06/2018 14:35

Janice’s piece was easy to understand

I read urs about 5 times Sarah r and still don’t understand£ it

So it’s to hot to attempt another read so will eat ice cream instead and perhaps someone with a better understanding will come alon* to dechiper

hackmum · 30/06/2018 15:45

I've been trying to understand Sarah's argument. I think it's this:

  1. Currently, if a trans woman actually looks like a woman, then it's not legally possible to exclude her UNLESS she does something really bad like expose herself.
  1. If the GRA process is simplified, that won't make any difference because it's already illegal to discriminate against transwomen unless they're misbehaving.

Is that it? If so, it doesn't follow at all because if you simplify the GRA process then it will be very easy for a man who has no intention of going through any kind of reassignment process to get a certificate. But perhaps I've misunderstood Sarah's argument. It was rather confusing.

busyboysmum · 30/06/2018 15:50

My ladydee brain couldn't cope with Sarah's complicated manoeuvring.

However Janice Turner's article was excellent. What a clarity she brings to the proceedings. And all the comments are largely on board with reality and common sense.

LangCleg · 30/06/2018 16:10

I'm generally inclined to scroll past walls of text.

I generally find that most of the women here whose opinions I value are considerably more succinct.

Ereshkigal · 30/06/2018 17:46

If for example a pre-operative transwoman repeatedly exposes her male genitalia in a communal changing room, causing the other women to complain, and attempts at compromise have failed (e.g. suggesting she uses a cubicle), then it could be proportional to exclude her

Why do women have to endure repeated indecent exposure (a criminal offence) and have to complain about it and suggest compromises before someone might deign to do something? Of course it's fucking proportional.

Ereshkigal · 30/06/2018 17:48

You really have no empathy or consideration for women Sarah, do you? Don't worry, everyone can see that.

enoughisenough12 · 30/06/2018 18:34

The comments underneath the article are almost unanimous - and there's hundreds of them!

3DSpex · 30/06/2018 19:53

What littlebrowndog said.

Janice makes a very clear, concise and compelling case.

thebewilderness · 30/06/2018 20:29

Until they found out that the training they received was a fraudulent misrepresentation of the EA it had been policy for some agencies to tell the girls who objected to stripping in front of men and boys to go elsewhere.
I expect to see a different approach now that they have been provided the actual text of the 2010 EA Law instead of the false documents.

Popchyk · 30/06/2018 21:12

Great article there.

Sets it out very clearly and the majority of the 320 comments actually understand what is at stake (which probably wouldn't have been the case even a couple of months ago).

Thanks Janice.

HermioneWeasley · 30/06/2018 21:16

Janice is doing amazing awareness raising

SarahAr · 30/06/2018 21:22

Executive summary

  1. A Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) obtained under the Gender Recognition Act (GRA) does not give transwomen the right to use single sex spaces reserved for women.

  2. The Equality Act (EA) gives transwomen with or without a GRC this right (technically if they are refused access to a single sex space they can sue for discrimination) subject to exemptions.

  3. As a practical matter, the exemptions would only come into play if the transwomen was visibly trans.

Therefore, Janice Turner's suggestion that simplifying the process of obtaining a GRC would make the exemptions useless is complete and utter bollocks.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 30/06/2018 21:24

SarahArjim lad Your comment really doesn't make sense. And I read it twice. I'm not normally hard of thinking. Maybe it's the heat.

SarahAr · 30/06/2018 21:29

Why do women have to endure repeated indecent exposure (a criminal offence) and have to complain about it and suggest compromises before someone might deign to do something? Of course it's fucking proportional.

The exemptions are very narrow. I gave an extreme example to ensure that it would fit into the exemption. I was not trying to give a borderline case to show where the boundary of the exemptions lie.

However, I used the word "could" as with no case law in this area nobody can be sure how a court would react.

Baroquehavoc · 30/06/2018 21:41

You're right, what a well reasoned, clear article by Janice.

And because of the platform will be read and understood by lots of influential people.

Ereshkigal · 30/06/2018 21:50

Sarah

It has been admitted by trans advocates here that the possession of a GRC would be likely to be a higher bar legally to using the EA exemptions than not having one. So it is entirely relevant how one is obtained.