As a biologist I can categorically state that human willy bearers are men no debate

[Alexa488]

As a biologist I can categorically state that human willy bearers are men no debate

MN get some balls

You will get no arguments from me on stating biology you are indeed correct on the biological fact and that is what makes us transgendered. Our gender does not match our biological sex and sometimes its a hard thing to live with and a hard consept to explain to others who don't experience that. But I think we can all agree that it's a fact that it exists too. Now is it biology too or social or a bit of both no one as yet to get a definite answer to that so we can not state either way I tend to think a bit of both but it's hard to be objective when it's happening to you.

Everything else we are discussing is how society deals with the fact that although most people don't feel this way some people clearly do and do we allow social and legal constructs to represent that it not. Societies throughout civilisation have found different ways to deal with that question and ours at the moment appears to be this one. You all disagree with that so are looking to find a different way to address this issue. By keep stating that biology is a fact you are only addressing one part of the issue. Also to TRA's we spend our whole life's fighting this biological fact and coming to terms with it and if we are lucky we find a way to live with it a lot of us over years have not and we have lost so many talented people because if this fact.

I would love to live and let live. The living and the letting live has generally been a thing I do.

However, that’s no longer on the table due to some extremely unreasonable behaviour by a small group of very unpleasant, very vocal activists who don’t speak for all transpeople, but certainly shout loud enough.

I will not have any truck with twisting, warping or denying science, or denying common sense and decency.

I will fight for the rights of women and girls to safe sex segregated spaces (and heck men too, men don’t want to give up their single sex spaces either)

I will fight till my last breath to protect and enhance child safeguarding regulations and view with deep, deep suspicion any person or group (who as I say is not all transpeople, but a small vocal minority) who press for anything that weakens child safeguarding.

This is one of those stupid goady threads...

‘As a scientist I can categorically state that fat people have less physical capacity than thin people as they have to invest additional energy into carrying their adipose tissue around. In addition they have lower life expectancies and are generally considered unattractive by potential partners’.

Factual, yes.....but nice, no,

I totally understand and support the battle for women’s rights to their own spaces but there are ways of fighting for that without being rude. I suspect close to 100% of trans men know that ‘vagina’ created is not ‘real’ and they certainly know that they cannot have babies.

Most men have little view on the trans issue and , I suspect, view trans women differently on a fundamental level to natal women.

This whole clash is between a small number of women and an even smaller number of trans women.

Yes, it could be the tip of an iceberg but, equally, the sillly trans bloggers could be like extremist Moslem sites. I would not insult Islam (or broadcast my secular atheist truth) loudly on Internet forums as I know, regardless of the literal truth about the preachings of the prophet, it would not go down well,

I would, however, do what it takes to protect the rights of Jewish people to be safe and respected. There is a subtle difference between the two.

Good post Bespin

In many contexts, a persons sex or gender identity can/should have no relevance. We are just humans making the most of our time on earth.
However, there are some contexts where sex and gender identity are highly significant.

I find denial of biology and denial of gender identity equally frustrating.

We need to recognise that differences in our sexed bodies matter in a number of contexts, and these contexts can present challenges for many trans people.

Many people on this board would engage in exploration as to how to address these issues so long as ridiculous claims about changing sex and appropriation of sex were not made.

People with gender dysphoria have legitimate reasons for wanting and needing support, protections and provision. We just need to make sure that these are provided without negative impact on others who also want and need support, protections and provision

Totally agree with that and when you read the equality act and even the existing grc both are attempting to achieve that very thing do they always achieve that no but does every bill address every eventuality many are often fudged through parliament and often need reviewing over time given case law as happened with the GRC originally and I suspect will happen with the equal marriage bill now that civil partnerships have been ruled legal for mixed sex couples. No one wants to lose their rights in this or take others but the more people draw lines in the sand the more it will feel like that when any ammendments happen either way. I often post on here the go out into the world and realise that it does not stop me just getting on with my life like everyone else

I think the problem is that the EA exemptions are not utilised.
Third sector organisations are worried about funding, companies are worried about public image. They will not risk being labelled bigoted.
I think a big, sensitive media campaign is needed to demonstrate that wanting single sex provision is not about excluding anyone, it is about addressing differences in sexed bodies. This campaign should also demonstrate that single sex provision is not right for everyone and so additional provision is important.

Factual, yes.....but nice, no

On the other hand, it's in factual language, I think that actually it would be good if everyone can get to the stage where they can accept accurate medical language without offence. I knew I was there when my maternity notes described me as 'a morbidly obese, geriatric prima gravida' (I may have spelled some of that wrong) - and I found it both gob-stoppingly rude but completely accurate, and therefore amusing rather than offensive. When younger it would have left me pretty hurt, but I've grown up, and realised that facts are not judgement, and it doesn't matter.

I believe that everyone would be better if they could get to the stage of accepting themselves. Afterall, we're all supposed to be 'real' these days I thought.

men who are were assigned female at birth

WHAT DOES THIS EVEN MEAN???

No one is assigned anything at birth, biological facts are documented. If you’re going to talk about gender; define what you mean by it because most feminists believe gender is nothing but a social construct. Are you saying that boys who like dolls are really girls, because stereotypes are a bigger factor in determining sex, than what’s between your legs?

Heads up, folks. Before engaging on this thread, you may wish to check out OP's other contribution to this site, started last night.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3290727-What-kind-of-a-man-would-you-be

Factual, yes.....but nice, no

Yes, come, come now ladies, we must remember, that no matter what new hellish ways men find to trample our rights, we should still remain polite and nice above all else. It’s just not ladylike to be so hysterical...

Did most people's trolldars break overnight?

But as an aside, yes I noticed the "women, play nicely, otherwise the boys will get upset with you, even if what you're saying is scientifically accurate" post. So predictable.

Trolly McTrollface.

fermats and angels

To be fair i think that larry is honestly concerned,

Cos if we arent nice and FWR is closed down he wont have a feminism board to impart his wisdom to

Wisdom?

Bullshit?

You decide

Eh, plenty of other fish in the sea/feminists to be pestered on other site.

This whole clash is between a small number of women and an even smaller number of trans women.

Not a small number of women - thousands have signed the petition. That is just the tip of the iceberg of women and men who are concerned about the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act and that the existing provisions to protect women in the Equality Act 2010 are not being applied.

This petition petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118 is asking for women to be consulted before changes to the existing laws that protect women's rights to safety, dignity and privacy.

When the Gender Recognition Act was introduced it was expected that around 5,000 people would register and the impact on existing women's rights and services would be minimal.

Just under 5,000 have obtained a GRC. So that seems to be working as anticipated. But it seems that an unknown quantity of men want access to women's spaces including sports and jobs without making any changes to their bodies or lifestyle while requiring the rest of society to validate their delusions to the disadvantage of women without a debate or consultation with women.

Many decades of hard won safeguarding protocols and societal expectations are being dismantled.

We know that where systems and procedures are lax and uncertain the abusers and predators will step in.

For more information about the existing law and the proposals and how they affect women and why women are concerned visit

fairplayforwomen.com

womansplaceuk.org

By keep stating that biology is a fact you are only addressing one part of the issue.

I only care about that part of the issue. Biological women's right and safety. Im not interested in anything else. I don't have to be. The rest of it is your issue or trans issues.

Naice
I like a Tunnocks Teacake myself,is it a biscuit though,or a little cake ?

Re the fat analogy - to make it accurate, perhaps there would have to be a small but vocal minority of fat people asking everyone else to call them thin. And thin people's right would have to exist for this minority of fat people to try and appropriate. And, basically I don't think this analogy is all that useful or accurate.

Anyway! Its all about ice lollies over biscuits for me in weather like this. Twisters all the way!

My mum shovels Tunnocks Teacakes into my kids.

Do love a good Tunnocks

What does a biologist do day to day at work? It's like philosophers or theologians.

Just curious.

'Re the fat analogy - to make it accurate, perhaps there would have to be a small but vocal minority of fat people asking everyone else to call them thin. And thin people's right would have to exist for this minority of fat people to try and appropriate. And, basically I don't think this analogy is all that useful or accurate.'

erm, what do you think 'fat shaming' is all about? The fact that you should not notice that someone is fat.

Right to exist?! I don't think anyone is discussing the wholesale slaughter of women. Your existence is not dependent on the recognition of a word being exclusive to natal women. This is where hyperbole really does not help your cause.

What you are talking about is the recognition of natal women of having specific rights which (depending on the specific right), on the whole, I agree with.

There are ways and means of achieving the above. Personally I do not believe deliberately upsetting trans women serves much purpose, especially as I expect the vast majority are naturally on your side.

In any event, to get back to your favoured derail (of your own thread..) Tunnocks Teacakes are pretty unpleasant, with most containing palm oil. Personally I would not feed them to my kids. On the other hand, a delicious M&S chocolate orange biscuit with a strong cup of tea is just the thing on a warm afternoon.