Where does all this weird language come from?

[speakingwoman]

Hi, just wondering if someone can help me trace the history of the terms that we hear in modern discourse around trans issues. I had assumed that "erasure" and being "erased" were very modern terms but just saw "erased" used in "An Angel at My Table" so it's not as old as I thought. Also the concepts of "violence", "literal violence" and "identity" which sound absurd but seem fraught with meaning.

Also if someone can help me understand the history of this modern tendency within Universities to shut down wrongful thinking/speech. My suspicion is that people saw Germany's successful banning of Nazi propoganda post-war and wanted to use the same techniques for slightly less apocalyptic issues and have been figuring out ways to do this ever since.

The reason for asking is that I'm pondering whether it's best to avoid the modern language altogether. The most effective techniques seem to involve much more old-fashioned down-to-earth language (I'm thinking of JustineMumsnet on the radio).

I also have this suspicion that if we adopt what I call "erasure" language we're playing on the other side's pitch.

I'm not trying to police other people's language. I'm just wondering whether I should be trying to understand and use these terms or whether it's better to see where they came from and reject them (in the way I know how to do with, for instance, certain jargon in education circles).

Nice work, FPO!

So, Bob’s interior world feels like it should be really be called Roberta, and Bob names all the reflections of Bob, Roberta, to validate Bob’s interior world.

Problem is, the Roberta class already exists, and the reflections of Bob aren’t much like the pre existing Robertas at all, at least, not if you pay proper attention.

So what happens next? Because that’s where we are, I believe.

Agree with Where about the larvae. I worry sometimes that if we reject all 'identity politics' we risk throwing the baby out with the bathwater and leaving genuinely oppressed groups unable to name their oppression. We should be savy enough to sift out the genuine claims from the nonsense.

The key thing here for me is the difference between creating or defining language to talk about yourself (because language didn't exist before), the power of naming, and taking language that someone else created for that purpose, and trying to redefine it to suit yourself (and disadvantage the original creators).
Appropriation, that's the difference.

SomeDyke, yes!

Agree somedyke

FormerlyPickingOakum
I'm sure you are right that people often refer to 'postmodernism' without knowing much about it. I think it often gets brought in because of the way it breaks the fixed connection between the object and the word that labels the object. It recognises that the meanings of words are constantly on the move, and are not necessarily shared by two people (like you pointed out - everyone in their own universe). That could lead to the Soviet/Orwellian situation where 2+2=5, because it all depends on how you define 5. Also, much of the vocabularies which blur the boundaries between male and female comes straight out of Judith Butler.

FormerlyPickingOakum
I'm sure you are right that people often refer to 'postmodernism' without knowing much about it. I think it often gets brought in because of the way it breaks the fixed connection between the object and the word that labels the object. It recognises that the meanings of words are constantly on the move, and are not necessarily shared by two people (like you pointed out - everyone in their own universe). That could lead to the Soviet/Orwellian situation where 2+2=5, because it all depends on how you define 5. Also, much of the vocabularies which blur the boundaries between male and female comes straight out of Judith Butler.

I agree...don't match the language.

If you watch the YouTube clips aimed at children/teens, explaining the ideology, they're hypnotic.

They talk fast and use words that make them sound intelligent and knowledgeable. If you listen though, often it makes no sense and is contradictory but that doesn't matter, you get carried away by the sound of it.

Chuffed by this thread. Fascinating.

They talk fast and use words that make them sound intelligent and knowledgeable. If you listen though, often it makes no sense and is contradictory but that doesn't matter, you get carried away by the sound of it.

Science Word Salad. You see the same thing on here - confident sounding, all the right terminology but the meaning is absent. It’s actually one of the things that drew me in to FWR because I was so annoyed at seeing it and wanted to pick it apart.

It works on things like YouTube and Twitter because there’s no right of reply in the former and too little space or subtlety in the latter.
But it doesnt work here.

Kyanite, what you said made me think of cults, and of course others have made the link before.

As regards philosophers, you do feel like someone needs to go up to this bunch of kids on the tram tracks and say 'hold on a minute, you do realise that the trolley problem was just a thought experiment.....Even the mostly and intentionally obscure Judith Butler, did she intend people to take what she said like this? When did the thinking and questioning stop and the belief begin? With transphobia the new and worst heresy.

Glad I was able to add something useful :)

Yes dissociation is the key concept. As is trauma and the cycle of abuse.

I can't say anything specific as it would be outing, but my posts are based on direct experience of how badly many people suffer with MH and with such enormous complexity and layering that is truly mindboggling.

It would do serious harm to many, many people if gender/ identity dypshoria was not kept as a mental health condition and any doctors who support this are serious failing thier patients. As they do already by failing to treat many MH illnesses properly.

As usual women/ feminists are having to act as the 'moral fibre' for when so many others are weak and fail to act.

Many of us have sadly had significant traumatic exeriences and know the challenges of (re)claiming our own person, and as a result are actually the best allies a trans or identity crisis-ed person could ever have. If only they could see it.

Dale spender - man made language? Jesus, I read that a million years ago! I wonder if I still have a copy.

You see, dear children, in the olden days we used to read a lot books about a topic, and have discussions/debates with real live people - actually face to face.

Then the Internet toddlers took over with their 140 character attention span, and their need for snappy little words and phrases to address rather complex issues.

I had 'Man Made Language' years ago and also 'Women & Words' I think it was called, which I re-read recently. Both made a big impression on me.

Dale spender - man made language? Jesus, I read that a million years ago! I wonder if I still have a copy.

You see, dear children, in the olden days we used to read a lot books about a topic, and have discussions/debates with real live people - actually face to face.

YY.

No point condescending to children, though. They know it all.

In a hurry so can't comment fully but really enjoying this thread. Thanks materialist - agree important to not conflate oppression, discrimination, disadvantage and even dislike and examine claims in more depth. Along with another pp I am sometimes concerned when gc debates shift a little rightwards. I get the frustration with the way language is being played with and oppression is being claimec by those who are in many ways privileged but that shouldn't pull us away from ideas of privilege and oppression completely just because TRAs can be so expert in appropriation.

Materialist I agree with you about the danger this all poses to genuine minority claims of oppression and where it leaves them in an economy with fewer jobs.

I agree that there a number of agendas here, and that people with MH issues, gender and identity dysphoria etc, in desperate emotional and psychological states are being manipulated into being the mouthpiece for those with ulterior motives.

Opportunism to an extent as well as planning I think... maybe the problem we have is that so many 'belief systems' intersect to the detriment of women that even without a conscious and coordinated conspiracy, women are 'targeted' from every angle. I'd do a venn diagram if I had the brain power.

Damn's DARVO post about the assault at Speakers Corner (which i personally witnessed) is a beautiful example of what we are dealing with.

Is the judgment available online?