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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

PACE Code C - how to work out if a criminal suspect is male or female

37 replies

CaitlynsCat · 26/06/2018 21:48

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/592547/pace-code-c-2017.pdf
(current code, inserted
"Certain provisions of this and other PACE Codes explicitly state that searches and other procedures may only be carried out by, or in the presence of, persons of the same sex as the person subject to the search or other procedure. See Note L1.

  1. All searches and procedures must be carried out with courtesy, consideration and respect for the person concerned. Police officers should show particular sensitivity when dealing with transgender individuals (including transsexual persons) and transvestite persons (see Notes L2, L3 and L4).

(a) Consideration

  1. In law, the gender (and accordingly the sex) of an individual is their gender as registered at birth unless they have been issued with a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) under the Gender Recognition Act 2004 (GRA), in which case the person's gender is their acquired
gender. This means that if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman and they must be treated as their acquired gender.
  1. When establishing whether the person concerned should be treated as being male or female for the purposes of these searches and procedures, the following approach which is designed to minimise embarrassment and secure the person’s co-operation should be followed:
(a) The person must not be asked whether they have a GRC (see paragraph 8); (b) If there is no doubt as to as to whether the person concerned should be treated as being male or female, they should be dealt with as being of that sex. (c) If at any time (including during the search or carrying out the procedure) there is doubt as to whether the person should be treated, or continue to be treated, as being male or female: (i) the person should be asked what gender they consider themselves to be. If they express a preference to be dealt with as a particular gender, they should be asked to indicate and confirm their preference by signing the custody record or, if a custody record has not been opened, the search record or the officer’s notebook. Subject to (ii) below, the person should be treated according to their preference; (ii) if there are grounds to doubt that the preference in (i) accurately reflects the person’s predominant lifestyle, for example, if they ask to be treated as a woman but documents and other information make it clear that they live predominantly as a man, or vice versa, they should be treated according to what appears to be their predominant lifestyle and not their stated preference; (iii) If the person is unwilling to express a preference as in (i) above, efforts should be made to determine their predominant lifestyle and they should be treated as such. For example, if they appear to live predominantly as a woman, they should be treated as being female; or (iv) if none of the above apply, the person should be dealt with according to what reasonably appears to have been their sex as registered at birth.
  1. Once a decision has been made about which gender an individual is to be treated as, each officer responsible for the search or procedure should where possible be advised before the search or procedure starts of any doubts as to the person's gender and the person informed that the doubts have been disclosed. This is important so as to maintain the dignity of the person and any officers concerned.

(b) Documentation

  1. The person’s gender as established under paragraph 4(c)(i) to (iv) above must be recorded in the person’s custody record or, if a custody record has not been opened, on the search record or in the officer’s notebook.
  2. Where the person elects which gender they consider themselves to be under paragraph 4(b)(i) but, following 4(b)(ii) is not treated in accordance with their preference, the reason must be recorded in the search record, in the officer’s notebook or, if applicable, in the person’s custody record.

(c) Disclosure of information

  1. Section 22 of the GRA defines any information relating to a person’s application for a GRC or to a successful applicant’s gender before it became their acquired gender as ‘protected information’. Nothing in this Annex is to be read as authorising or permitting any police officer or any police staff who has acquired such information when acting in their official capacity to disclose that information to any other person in contravention of the GRA.

Disclosure includes making a record of ‘protected information’ which is read by others

Notes for Guidance

L1 Provisions to which paragraph 1 applies include:

In Code C; paragraph 4.1 and Annex A paragraphs 5, 6, and 11 (searches, strip and intimate searches of detainees under sections 54 and 55 of PACE);
In Code A; paragraphs 2.8 and 3.6 and Note 4;
In Code D; paragraph 5.5 and Note 5F (searches, examinations and photographing of detainees under section 54A of PACE) and paragraph 6.9 (taking samples);
In Code H; paragraph 4.1 and Annex A paragraphs 6, 7 and 12 (searches, strip and intimate searches under sections 54 and 55 of PACE of persons arrested under section 41 of the Terrorism Act 2000)

L2 While there is no agreed definition of transgender (or trans), it is generally used as an umbrella term to describe people whose gender identity (self-identification as being a woman, man, neither or both) differs from the sex they were registered as at birth. The term includes, but is not limited to, transsexual people.
L3 Transsexual means a person who is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of gender reassignment, which is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010 (see paragraph 1.0), by changing physiological or other attributes of their sex. This includes aspects of gender such as dress and title. It would apply to a woman making the transition to being a man and a man making the transition to being a woman, as well as to a person who has only just started out on the process of gender reassignment and to a person who has completed the process.
Both would share the characteristic of gender reassignment with each having the characteristics of one sex, but with certain characteristics of the other sex.

L4 Transvestite means a person of one gender who dresses in the clothes of a person of the opposite gender. However, a transvestite does not live permanently in the gender opposite to their birth sex.
L5 Chief officers are responsible for providing corresponding operational guidance and instructions for the deployment of transgender officers and staff under their direction and control to duties which involve carrying out, or being present at, any of the searches and procedures described in paragraph 1. The guidance and instructions must comply with the Equality Act 2010 and should therefore complement the approach in this Annex. "

This wording was inserted in 2012, and has not changed. www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/07/23/new-search-rules-for-trans-police-officers-and-suspects-drawn-up/

Note that this:

"At the same time, this guidance was potentially at odds with a House of Lords ruling from the previous year (A v West Yorkshire Police (2004)), which held that no-one of a particular gender could reasonably object to being searched by a “transsexual who is visually and for all practical purposes indistinguishable from non-transsexual members of that gender”"

is rather selectively quoted on the part of Penis news, omitting a rather crucial word

Here is the actual judgment

www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKHL/2004/21.html

"In my opinion, effect can be given to the clear thrust of EU law only by reading "the same sex" as referring to the acquired gender of a post-operative transsexual who is visually and for all practical purposes indistinguishable from non-transsexual members of that gender. No one of that gender searched by such a person could reasonably object to the search."

Elsewhere the judgment notes "Every reasonable effort must be made to reduce to the minimum the embarrassment that a person being searched may experience, it was plain that Ms A, who appeared in every respect to be a woman [I'll take their word for it], could not, even if legally a man [at 1998 law], be permitted to search a man."

The issue of course is that whereas in 2004 it was a 'post-operative' 'passing' transsexual, in 2018 you can get a GRC while still being very obviously male - the Emily Howard concept is now seen as horribly offensive, and you must accept the claims of someone to be a woman even if they plainly are not. So embarrassment is not exactly minimised.

OP posts:
Serfisafleur · 26/06/2018 21:50

TLDR

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 26/06/2018 22:14

What does it mean to "live as a woman" or "live as a man". Just stereotypes?

I think living as a woman involves having XX chromosomes, and the sex organs (or having had the sex organs e.g in case of removal due to illness) that go with that.

seafret · 27/06/2018 01:49

Did read! Interesting. Will digest.

bluescreen · 27/06/2018 02:45

Blimey. I have short hair and wear jeans, and have done for about 30 years. And if anyone asks me about my gender I'd tell them to eff off. (I bore a child, though.)
What does this mean for me? Shock

CaitlynsCat · 27/06/2018 06:01

This is a load of bollocks, isn't it?

" The person must not be asked whether they have a GRC"

What's the point of a GRC if you don't ask if they have one?

Granted, it's clear that IF a police officer asks if they have one, they shouldn't normally disclose it, unless "the disclosure is for the purpose of preventing or investigating crime," (GRA 2004 s22 (4) (f)), but that doesn't in any way stop them from asking for one.

OP posts:
Pratchet · 27/06/2018 06:08

Somebody said on the other thread that the police can ask to see a GRC.

But they can't? That's ridiculous. We need this legalised as soon as possible. We need to press for this in the consultation process. Insane that the police can't ask to see a GRC. Insane.

Pratchet · 27/06/2018 06:10

Who wrote these regulations and laws? Is it stupidity or malice? Fuqsake

Pratchet · 27/06/2018 06:11

And thank you caitlyn for the effort here

Urbanbeetler · 27/06/2018 06:16

It’s so ambiguous.

CaitlynsCat · 27/06/2018 06:30

The police have apparently been infiltrated by a bunch of TRAs.

As in the case of when the described a male rapist they were hunting for as a woman, without qualification.

Said rapist almost certainly didn't have a GRC, but if you can't ask for one!?

And in any case you can disclose that a 'female' rapist is actually a man if it's for the purposes of preventing crime.

OP posts:
Dinosaurchicken · 27/06/2018 06:34

I quite like the section about ignoring their preference if their lifestyle doesn’t support it though.

Although I’m not sure what they mean by lifestyle. As a pp said stereotypes presumably..

Pratchet · 27/06/2018 06:45

You said it Caitlyn
www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/assets/media/CPS%20Transgender%20Equality%20Management%20Guidance.pdf

Gires, Mermaids - usual suspects, as they say in the business

PACE Code C - how to work out if a criminal suspect is male or female
Pratchet · 27/06/2018 06:47

And that was four years ago.

DisturblinglyOrangeScrambleEgg · 27/06/2018 06:54

I think that those regs read like they were written with a good understanding of the situation at the time - they clearly do separate sex and gender (not quite as a feminist would, but they have a distinction) and it's written to protect transsexuals, but not have other people take the mick.

I find this bit interesting:

it was plain that Ms A, who appeared in every respect to be a woman [I'll take their word for it], could not, even if legally a man [at 1998 law], be permitted to search a man."

That the judge definitely related it to himself - that he wouldn't want to be searched by Ms A because Ms A appeared to be a woman, so clearly that wasn't reasonable to expect a man like him to submit to search from them.

CaitlynsCat · 27/06/2018 07:02

"Who wrote these regulations and laws? "

Not sure. They are brought into force by Statutory Instrument.

Here's a police force's transgender policy. It contains some utter bollocks.

www.cheshire.police.uk/media/1482/transgender-gender-resassignment.pdf

"Sex – the physical and biological form of being male or female or both (hermaphrodites or intersexual) or neither (asexual)"

You w0t m8? Neither = asexual? I don't think so. And intersexual doesn't necessarily mean 'both'. Someone can have an intersex condition without being both.

" It is believed that the condition [transgender] may begin prior to birth"

ORLY?

"Transvestism – refers to individuals who wear clothes of the opposite gender. There is no sexual motive for the dressing "

No sexual motive? How the hell do they say that?

"Some transgender people, especially female-to-male, never complete the process by undergoing reassignment surgery but still live fully in the reassigned role. "

Some? Try most.

"Gender Dysphoria is not a ‘lifestyle choice’ nor is it a facet of homosexuality"

Blanchard identified 'homosexual gender dysphoria' and 'heterosexual gender dysphoria'. The early Western transgender pioneers of the 60s were homosexual. It seems quite offensive to try to claim this has nothing to do with being gay.

" Research would appear to support the opinion that it is a genetic condition, which occurs during the development of the foetus in the womb. Therefore this is a condition that a person is born with."

Bollocks. There MAY be genetic pointers but it is not proven, and it is blindingly obvious that if it is genetic in some part, it certainly is not exclusively genetic.

"Clinically, a developing foetus is a-sexual, that is to say neither male nor female, but has the capacity to be either. The general agreement is that if a foetus must be assigned a gender, then it is female. "

ORLY. The capacity? What are they smoking?
"A baby's sex is determined at the time of conception." First line of fucking Wikipedia.

Lying bastards.

"For the first twelve weeks of development, the foetus retains its asexual status. All the genetic building blocks are in place to create a human being; if nothing happens then the foetus develops as a female."

No mate, the sex was determined at the moment of conception, and except in vanishingly rare cases chromosomal sex is all.

" At twelve weeks, if the baby is to be male then the mother’s body floods the foetus with an ‘androgen burst’ (a burst of testosterone). This begins the process of masculinising the external and internal reproductive organs to male."

You fucking what? In fact the genitals are already fully male or female by 12 weeks. Sex discrimination begins around 6 or 7 weeks as a result of genes on the Y chromosome (apologies for the hatespeech - 'chromosome'), and then at 9 weeks the production of testosterone BY THE FUCKING FOETUS YOU LYING BASTARDS.

"However, it is not until the sixteenth week that a second ‘androgen burst’ begins to masculinise the brain. It is known that male and female brains differ significantly in certain areas in terms of construction. This has nothing to do with intelligence; it is part of the essential differences between the two genders."

Fuck off.

www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/06/male-female-brains-biologically-different/563702/

"As a result of research, it would appear that transgenderism is caused during the twelfth to sixteenth week of development, either caused by the first burst happening but the second burst does not, leaving the baby with the physical attributes of a male but the brain functions of a female, resulting in Male to Female Transgender, or the first burst not happening and the second doing so, leaving the baby with the physical attributes of a female and the brain function of a male, resulting in Female to Male Transgender."

Utter bollocks. Total lies.

OP posts:
Bloodmagic · 27/06/2018 07:09

"if there are grounds to doubt that the preference in (i) accurately reflects the person’s predominant lifestyle, for example, if they ask to be treated as a woman but documents and other information make it clear that they live predominantly as a man, or vice versa, they should be treated according to what appears to be their predominant lifestyle and not their stated preference;"

Hang on, does this mean that even though my documents say I'm female and I claim that I am female, if the police determine that my predominant lifestyle is male (because I kept my own surname, am an educated professional, wearing pants, wearing short hair, not wearing make up, etc etc) they can decide to treat me as a male? Because that's how it reads. What's good for the goose and all that.

You have a right to be searched by someone of the same sex as you, not the sex of your choice. Gender doesn't come into it. If it does, a male police officer can just identify as female prior to searching a transwoman and then desist afterwards.

CaitlynsCat · 27/06/2018 07:11

"That the judge definitely related it to himself - that he wouldn't want to be searched by Ms A because Ms A appeared to be a woman, so clearly that wasn't reasonable to expect a man like him to submit to search from them."

Incidentally long before the resolution of this case, in 2001, a male North Yorkshire police officer came back to work as a female (so not obviously 'clearly a woman').

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1449192.stm

However it's possible that after 26 years of service they were no longer involved with searching people etc. so not really the same operational issue as a newly recruited police officer.

OP posts:
CaitlynsCat · 27/06/2018 07:12

"If it does, a male police officer can just identify as female prior to searching a transwoman and then desist afterwards."

The gender of the police officer would be a matter of internal record. That a biologically male might be recorded as female is another matter of course, and in that case they would ONLY be able to search females.

OP posts:
Dinosaurchicken · 27/06/2018 07:12

My god. That really is som bollocks. Utterly untrue.

Have they been made aware a huge amount of their leaflet is false ?

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 27/06/2018 07:13

Wow, this is like Cheshire police think the earth is flat. It's that level of scientific illiteracy. Can this be challenged legally?

Gentlygently · 27/06/2018 07:18

There are so many different issues here.

Presumably in an ideal world one would consider the feelings of both the person being searched and the person doing the searching.

Given that it is not likely to be pleasant for either, it makes sense to have guidelines.

And it is reasonably clear that a woman (of the female sex) can’t object to being searched by a woman, and a man can’t object to being searched by a man.

The case referred to seems to say a woman can’t object to being searched by a man who has undergone sexual reconstruction surgery (and who the woman believes at the time is a woman??? - can’t really see how else you get to ‘indistinguishable’).

These guidelines however are written giving no thought to the feelings of the officers. They will lead to some female officers being (asked? Made?) to search people with male genitalia.

And we know this is already happening, both in Canada, and I believe this has also happened in Scotland?

What do female police officers make of this?

Ifonlyus · 27/06/2018 08:00

CaitlynsCat OMG - those Cheshire Police regulations! What are they talking about? What utter bollocks. Asexual??? They're talking about a fetus and using the term asexual!

Is there not some 'common sense', 'review the scientific evidence' organisation we can refer this to to pick apart publically?

Ifonlyus · 27/06/2018 08:06

Is that the guidelines they are currently referring to? It says Review date 2012. Was it reviewed and amended?

Bowlofbabelfish · 27/06/2018 08:06

At twelve weeks, if the baby is to be male then the mother’s body floods the foetus with an ‘androgen burst’ (a burst of testosterone). This begins the process of masculinising the external and internal reproductive organs to male."

Entirely incorrect. The SRY region of the Y chromosome intiates changes to the foetus. And far earlier than 12 weeks. The mother’s body does not provide any hormonal wash, burst or anything.

This is direct from the tra playbook and needs challenging

Pratchet · 27/06/2018 08:15

Wow. Cheshire police has been beset by a huge bullying scandal anyway.

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