Transgender people can be turned away from female only spaces government says

[mammyoftwo]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5880533/amp/Women-allowed-bar-transgender-people-female-changing-rooms-toilets-ministers.html?ico=amp_mostReadNews

Apologies for the source, it's from the daily fail. However, if true it's definitely a victory worth celebrating!!

Snappity

Yes I know. And no, I don't think many are lying at the moment. About 1% of people who identify as trans have a GRC. Usually what women refer to as 'genuine transsexuals'.

But there are men who I consider AGP, who say they have a GRC. In which case yes, I think they are probably lying. Either about having one, or about their authenticity in order to get one.

But if you remove the criteria in order to get one, then there is nothing to stop the 650,000 getting one, including 14,000 men in prison for sex offences.

The Juno article you posted, Datun, is fascinating.

It evokes a lot of emotions in me. Sympathy that someone (many someones by the sound of it) are led to believe they will somehow have a working, proper vagina, empathy to the desire to want something so badly and not achieve it (equality, often, ironically) because no matter how much you want something doesn’t make it so. Curiosity and yes, revulsion, to this alien experience being described with the word “vagina.”

It never really bothered me until now, that transwomen want surgery to have a vagina. I always knew it wouldn’t be a vagina. By hearing the word, my word, women’s word, applied to something that is a wound, that does not function, does not have its own system and processes, is really hard. Harder than I expected.

The sexual component doesn’t escape me either.

Lots to think about there.

That article about scotland is interesting, espeically this bit:

"However none of the councils involved, nor the children’s commissioner, nor Education Scotland have carried out an equality impact assessment to ensure the rights and wellbeing of other pupils are unaffected. This means the impact other students has not been taken into account."

Wow. NONE.

So much for cis privilege huh.

"Of course you can't. Women don't have to regularly dilate their vaginas to prevent them from closing up. "

As it happens, not true. There are women who do have to dilate their vaginas and for a great many of them the shame of it prevents them from speaking out about their experiences. Comments like the one above does not help with that nor does claiming that "But it's also quite obvious, that this is a uniquely transwoman experience, not a woman's."

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/feb/16/my-life-in-sex-cervical-cancer-survivor-vaginal-dilator

Perhaps this board, in it's rush to talk about trans people, is now actively trampling over the experiences of women in it's portrayal of these things not being something that happen to women.

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jun/25/no-plans-change-law-single-sex-spaces-uk-transgender?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Please stop aappropriating women's gynaecological struggles for "gotchas" about how men who have surgery to get approximations of female body parts are basically the same as women.

This women has to do it because she is having radiotherapy. Seriously, this needs to stop.

Datun

If you ask a man to leave, because he is a man, and he says no I'm not - that's the end of the conversation.

I think not ! the person asking the question can be arrested , it might not happen in your reality

but in any major cities , the person requesting or objecting to someone can be charged with a hate crime , these activists rascals know that ,

and would take great delight , in making a citizens arrest

don't worry I know plenty of my colleagues in any law firm will represent you , go on spoil yourself get a really good solicitor,
not a leftie like the chambers I work in

erhaps this board, in it's rush to talk about trans people, is now actively trampling over the experiences of women in it's portrayal of these things not being something that happen to women

Perhaps we should look at who is actually to blame there. It's not feminists.

I mean this stuff Wakame keeps posting about how the clitoris and penis are basically the same.

(Really? Where does the semen get ejaculated from? Am I pissing through my clitoris? Please direct me to a diagram of how the internal structure of the penis is much larger than the outside, wraps around the vagina, and looks somewhat like a cool alien thing).

Now we're told our outer flaps are just the same as a man's bollocks. Again, not seeing it. My vulva is defying the effects of gravity in a way that my husband's are entirely failing to. Also, his bollocks contain testicles which produce semen and you know all that. My vulva, not so much.

What is this piffle about "redistributing soft tissues" to try and make it sound like they simply get remodelled like clay and VOILA lady bits.

The idea that woman's sexual organs bascially involve just a hole with some bollock skin around is, you know, just a bit offensive to women.

actively trampling over the experiences of women

Oh the irony.

Interestingly I have had a post deleted.

Never mind, I can get my point across, whilst remaining within talk guidelines.

According to Blanchards typology, there are two types of transwomen.

The first is a homosexual transsexual, and the second an autogynephile (men being aroused at the thought of themselves as a woman, a fetish).

Women here are very familiar with what AGP is and how it works. Indeed, there are quite a few of them who are married to/divorced from men with AGP some of whom identify as trans, some of whom don't.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanchard%27s_transsexualism_typology

These men do not generally want genital surgery. They enjoy, and talk about, having sex with women, using their penis. Although hormones to create a more feminine figure, are often desired.

Because they need validation that they are women, but also want to have sex with women, they pursue lesbians. And call themselves lesbians.

Many lesbians find this offensive, lesbianism refers to same-sex attraction between women. Not opposite sex attraction.

Sexual orientation is a protected characteristic. I don't imagine the equality act is going to be rewritten to claim that it is now opposite sex attraction.

I should think there would be a considerable number of homosexual men and lesbian women who might have something to say about that.

"Please stop aappropriating women's gynaecological struggles for "gotchas" about how men who have surgery to get approximations of female body parts are basically the same as women.

This women has to do it because she is having radiotherapy. Seriously, this needs to stop."

Please stop erasing the lived experiences of women in an attempt to create "gotchas" about trans people. The repeated claim that women don't need to dilate their vaginas does exactly that, alongside the deeply nasty implication that inevitably follows that anybody who does dilate must be a fake "woman".

And interesting how many rush to use such a women as a shield for their argument that real women don't dilate, and yet don't seem to care enough about the same women to walkback or change the message they repeatedly send out. Instead it's always the same, "women don't dilate", despite the fact that they do, and the repeated insistence that women don't can do nothing but add to the stress, anxiety, and shame that any woman in that position would likely be experiencing.

"erhaps[sic] this board, in it's rush to talk about trans people, is now actively trampling over the experiences of women in it's portrayal of these things not being something that happen to women

Perhaps we should look at who is actually to blame there. It's not feminists."

So you are saying that the person who posted the original comment about women not needing to dilate is not a feminist, or...?

I have been accused of bullshit. Well along with my Neuro diversity comes super taste and super smelling abilities, hence my ability to smell males so well.

adinnerdivided.wordpress.com/2011/10/03/supertasting-super-smellers-and-simple-palates/

That's shocking Sardines

No impact assessments whatsoever.

The Juno article is fascinating Datun thanks for sharing it.

As it happens, not true. There are women who do have to dilate their vaginas and for a great many of them the shame of it prevents them from speaking out about their experiences. Comments like the one above does not help with that nor does claiming that "But it's also quite obvious, that this is a uniquely transwoman experience, not a woman's

The woman in the link you posted has had treatment for gynaecological cancer involving radiotherapy. I won’t go into details of what that involves, it’s googleable, but it’s gruelling, physically and mentally and often leads to serious damage long term/permanentto the reproductive tract.

To appropriate the medical treatment of a woman going through a painful, physically and mentally gruelling cancer treatment and say that it’s the same as a transwoman dilating an implanted organ facsimile is absolutely disgraceful. It is beyond words.

I’m suddenly seeing these appropriations spring up - last week it was infertility. This week it’s gynaecological cancer. What next?

MeetTheNewAccountSameAsTheOld

Oh dear. A woman dilating because she has had cancer is going through a uniquely female experience.

A transwoman who is dilating their neovagina to stop it closing, isn't.

And yes, this appropriation of women's explicitly female gynaecological issues, is repugnant.

But in the interests of transparency, furthering people's understanding, and the journalists who are taking notes, do please, carry on.

"To appropriate the medical treatment of a woman going through a painful, physically and mentally gruelling cancer treatment and say that it’s the same as a transwoman dilating an implanted organ facsimile is absolutely disgraceful. It is beyond words."

As that is not what I've said I'm wondering what your point is.

My point is clear. There are women who need to dilate. Sweeping statements as above, "Women don't have to regularly dilate their vaginas to prevent them from closing up", and posted elsewhere on this board do nothing to help those women or any woman who may need to go through that experience.

Erasing the lived experiences of women to make a "gotcha" point about trans people is wrong. Period.

Trying to claim that the statement posted isn't erasing the lived experiences of women. Likewise.

Trying to take the fact that a poster on a Feminism board completely erased the experiences of an entirely unknown number of women, and twist it into some sort of failed attempt to invalidate my point that the statement made erases the experiences of those women and places additional stress, anxiety, and shame on those women should they happen across such statements. Oh yes, definitely likewise.

HappensInHumans
Yes, I've just read this. I think we need to demand a proper Eq Assessment.
At the recent women's &eq committee meeting there was some acknowledgement that depts weren't carrying them out properly. It would be deeply embarrassing if the same was said of the women's & eq dept. They should lead by example.

inevitably follows that anybody who does dilate must be a fake "woman".

There's no such thing as a fake woman. Tut.

The vagina is not an organ which requires dilation. In rare cases due to illness, treatment for illness or psychological reasons it could be required. A neo vagina always requires dilation, as it is not a vagina and does not have the same natural characteristics.

Humans are not plug and play. Or lego. Or plasticine.

And a vagina is a lot more than random soft tissue and has considerably more functionality. I think women should take the time to learn everything they can, not only about the gross anatomy of their reproductive systems but also the microanatomy and the functional processes. The female reproductive system is a marvel. Evolution is a thing of wonder!

Yes, and most transgender people won't legally be able to Self-ID as Self-ID is usually described because they won't be able to sign the Statutory Declaration.

A while back, but why not?

Ireland's says this:

"I do solemnly and sincerely declare that I have a settled and solemn intention to live in the preferred gender for the rest of my life, understand the consequences of the application, and make this application of my own free will.”

I could sign this is good conscience as I have very masculine habits and mode of dress and don't intend to change. I'm not sure what else 'live in the preferred gender might mean' - perhaps it's something one day and another the next?

Lots of passing the buck going on in Scotland.

And, wouldn't you just believe it, the information about public sector equality duties on the Equality and Human Rights Commission's website has replaced sex with gender:

https//www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/public-sector-equality-duty-scotland/public-sector-equality-duty-faqs