Anyone up to speed with the Lindsay Shepherd case (the Canadian TA)?

[ConfessionsOfTeenageDramaQueen]

For those who aren't Lindsay is a 20-something TA at a Canadian University. Last November she was teaching a class on pronouns and, during the class, showed a 5 minute clip of a debate (that had been broadcast on Canadian TV) that featured a panel of speakers discussing gender pronouns in the context of trans issues.

The panel consisted of a few people including a trans-man, and Jordan Peterson.

After the class a student mentioned the clip to someone who reported it to the local LGBT group on campus who complained to the faculty who hauled her into a disciplinary meeting, which she had the presence of mind to record.

The meeting is 40 minutes long but I implore you to listen: not only does it give an insight into the Orwellian mindset of these two male professors, but their comments are absolutely dripping with sexism:

I'd be interested to know what others make of this case.

[ConfessionsOfTeenageDramaQueen]

Lots of interesting points here - and will have a read of the articles later today.

What I felt has been overlooked in discussion of Lindsay's treatment elsewhere and here - and which is why I started this thread - is the appalling sexism she was subjected to in the discussion.

For those who understandably don't have time to listen to the full recording, at one point, Pimlott asks her, his voice dripping in disdain, "My research in that subject is subject to peer review - you know what peer review is, right?" - he is literally asking a university teaching assistant if she knows what peer review is. He would never have asked a man that. He also says later:

Later he says: "What I have found is one of the things is a notion of confirmation bias - you've heard that phrase?"

It's just unbelievably sneering and - frankly - sexist.

The reason I think this is particularly interesting in the context of this particular discussion is because of the misogyny and sexism some have identified in the extreme wings of trans activism.

[FloralBunting]

Now that's interesting. For the longest time, I was vocally anti-feminism because I was part of a group that depicted 'Feminism' as the belief that biology was irrelevant, men and women were interchangeable, women could choose to do whatever they wanted, including prostitution and porn etc.

It's only since I have discovered that is not what feminism is that I have been happy to align myself with Feminists. Very much because of the tribalism mentioned in Offred's post.

What countered my misconception was an actual exposure to ideas - as opposed to a supercilious refusal to listen to what people had to say because of the stable they came from or whether I could sign up to every belief they did hold.

[Bamc1977]

“For those who understandably don't have time to listen to the full recording, at one point, Pimlott asks her, his voice dripping in disdain, "My research in that subject is subject to peer review - you know what peer review is, right?" - he is literally asking a university teaching assistant if she knows what peer review is. He would never have asked a man that. He also says later: “

I’m afraid you’re just making as assertion with zero evidence. We have no way of knowing if he’d have asked a man that question or not. We cannot simply say I know this is what he would have done or wouldn’t so he’s guilty. For what it’s worth I think he would probably have patronised almost anyone, but I can’t know that. Neither can you.

[ConfessionsOfTeenageDramaQueen]

"I’m afraid you’re just making as assertion with zero evidence. We have no way of knowing if he’d have asked a man that question or not."

@Bamc1977 Sure but isn't that the case with most sexism?

When I was a trainee solicitor and my male supervisor asked me to help him with his tie a couple of times a week, I couldn't be sure he wouldn't have asked me if I had been a male trainee - but I feel pretty confident in stating that it was probably sexism.

Similarly if you listen to the recording, you can't be sure, of course, they wouldn't have taken the same tone/said the same words with a male TA, but I feel pretty confident in stating that they wouldn't have.

[Prawnofthepatriarchy]

Bamc, I've listened to the whole thing and my take is the same as Confession. The men speak to Lindsay in a really breathtakingly condescending way. The sexism is overpowering. If you have ever experienced it, it's unmistakable.

[Dragoncake]

Does Adria Joel speak in the recording? I can't remember and don't have time to listen again. Shepherd's court case states that Joel was present.

[Bamc1977]

I think they would have spoken to any male TA in the university setting that way. I doubt they would talk to a young male on the street that way outside the university setting though, but that would be out of fear of getting punched more than anything else. Men like this don’t tend to respect other men outside their cult either, but they do often fear them in a way that they don’t fear women and I think that is where a lot of this behaviour comes from, a lack of fear rather than a lack of respect for all women because they are women. They went far beyond condescending behaviour, they were bullying her and lying to her in order to attempt to force her to go along with their totalitarian ideology and adopt their cult like thinking and become part of a brainwashing machine to indoctrinate the students they were supposed to be educating. The fact they were prepared to lie to her about having received complaints is especially telling, it shows they believe the end justified the means. I honestly don’t understand why the university didn’t just sack them all for gross misconduct for that alone.

[nauticant]

It's been a while since I heard the recording but I do think Adria Joel might have made a comment or two. However, she would have known that the meeting was for men to punish the disobedient woman and keeping mostly quiet was prudent.

Out of curiosity I had a quick look at Shepherd's twitter account. Some of her tweets are unpleasant and she is firmly aligned to Jordan Peterson in follower mode. It might be that with her career chances severely compromised, she views this as the best chance of building another career.

Even though I think she is doing herself some disfavours, I would really like to see her have success with the court case, especially as a result of going to trial instead of being settled confidentially beforehand. It would be terrific if her interrogators could be taken line by line through the recording by a skilled and forensic lawyer.

[TheCountessofFitzdotterel]

.' I honestly don’t understand why the university didn’t just sack them all for gross misconduct for that alone.'

Because they're higher up the hierarchy, will have socialised more with the people at the top, because to do so would be to admit to a massive failing in university culture and recruitment. Much easier to ignore how appallingly they have behaved and hope nobody notices.
But you're right, any organisation with a shred of ethics would have done.

[Dragoncake]

Thanks nauticant. I wonder what Joel's thoughts on the matter now are. It will be interesting to see what comes out in the court case. I wish Shepherd success.

My thoughts on Peterson are evolving as I watch some of his videos. I'm rather shocked at how the media has misrepresented him. I disagree with him on many points but he seems to be just a standard professor with an interest in resisting compelled speech. He and Shepherd have experienced similar treatment from the woke. I'm not surprised that she is gravitating towards him.

[Bamc1977]

Well if you are right and the university is so corrupt that the people running it think that senior staff lying to people by claiming that they’ve been the subject of official complaints when they haven’t, and then forcing staff to attend upsetting meetings based on these lies, isn’t a clear case of gross misconduct then the university is completely rotten. But more worrying than that it means that these so called ‘far right activists’ who complain that ‘cultural Marxism’ has taken over the educational establishment aren’t far wrong either. So these so called far right are actually correct then? At least about higher education?

[nauticant]

Jordan Peterson says some things I agree with and some I disagree with, and that's how it should be. However, in my view, there's some cult-like phenomenon developing around him and I find that rather disturbing. I hope he resists the temptation of getting high on his own supply.

[TheCountessofFitzdotterel]

'But more worrying than that it means that these so called ‘far right activists’ who complain that ‘cultural Marxism’ has taken over the educational establishment aren’t far wrong either. '

Well, that would depend how typical this one clearly very shitty institution is.

[Prawnofthepatriarchy]

Bamc, that "cultural Marxism" accusation rings more and more true. The preposterous mental acrobatics involved in some of the group think are very troubling, as is the approval of "safe spaces" where ideas cannot be challenged.

The debate over trans versus women's rights has brought lots of unlikely groups together. The Hands Across the Aisle initiative is one such, where radfem lesbians unite with conservative Christian women over this one topic under the slogan Biology is not bigotry.

[Bamc1977]

Well the law suit says that Lindsey is effectively unemployable in academia now as a result of all this, so that would imply it’s everywhere? Unless an academic institution was like this one I can’t se why she would be unemployable given that she did nothing wrong?

[Dragoncake]

However, in my view, there's some cult-like phenomenon developing around him and I find that rather disturbing. I hope he resists the temptation of getting high on his own supply

I've noticed this too and agree. There was one particular video where I felt he crossed a line by relating tearfully how his lecture videos were 'helping people'. He is open about his generally poor mental health. I hope that he can remain stable. My biggest shock was seeing how misrepresented his opinions have been, although that no longer surprises me.

[Offred]

In this context, I am interested to know what you mean by ‘cultural marxism’?

[ALittleBitofVitriol]

FloralBunting
Very well said and I'm in a similar boat - there are some aspects of feminist theory that I still have a question mark over but at this point I'm willing to listen and believe that it's likely my ignorance showing...

A friend of mine spoke with the Hands Across the Aisle people and they do sound reasonable. Apparently there are two 'don't go there' topics, agree to disagree and come together for the greater good. I'm sure we can all guess what they are.

[Offred]

(I am assuming that you do not mean that you believe there is a global Jewish communist conspiracy to destroy capitalism by bullying one TA at a time)

[Bamc1977]

“My biggest shock was seeing how misrepresented his opinions have been, although that no longer surprises me” - mine too, to be perfectly honest. When Donald Trump first started calling the media fake news I thought the man was a clown and a narcissist. Now I think he’s a narcissist with a point. There seems to be a disturbing trend to attempt to discredit a person rather than discredit their arguments coming from the far left and the Labour Party recently. The Cathy Newman interview was eye opening for me. And Channel 4 is supposed to be a trustworthy news organisation and I believe it even gets public funding.

[Prawnofthepatriarchy]

To be perfectly honest, Offred, I don't know precisely what I mean. It's just a phrase I must have seen a hundred times and the meaning I glean from the context.

Cultural Marxism is the idea that the left presents itself as progressive and liberal, where as the truth is that identity politics are authoritarian, and very judgemental. Makes me think of the propaganda of smiling universal brotherhood of communist Russia compared to the millions who died under Stalin.

[Prawnofthepatriarchy]

<a class="break-all" href="https://www-urbandictionary-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&term=cultural%20marxism&amp=true&usqp=mq331AQECAE4AQ%3D%3D#referrer=www.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.urbandictionary.com%2Fdefine.php%3Fterm%3Dcultural%2520marxism" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Oops, link here.

[Offred]

I do not think this is coming from specifically ‘the left’.

I think you can see that both sides do it, you even did it yourself just then by using the modern version of ‘reds under the bed’; ‘the far left’.

I see it as a much wider cultural problem affecting the mainstream, not driven by the fringes (the fringe people are not fussed about influencing the mainstream by and large). I believe it is driven by individualism and though there are observable differences in superficial aspects and behaviour between left wing and right wing tribes, the behaviour is remarkably similar at it’s core.

[Offred]

It’s not a criticism prawn, I’m just interested to know because I think part of the problem is the reduction of arguments based on ideas to buzzwords which are more about social signalling than advancing understanding.

[Prawnofthepatriarchy]

No, you're right. It definitely does affect both left and right.

However in academia it's the left that holds most of the power. That's why Jordan Peterson is under attack, why yhose appalling blokes thought they had the right to speak to Lindsay Shepherd as they did.

This has a big effect on the gender debate too. It's what emboldens TRA to raise the lady penis thing in university LGBT socs - socs which used to be where very young lesbians could feel free and supported.