Debate in this week's BMJ about legalising prostitution

[2rebecca]

www.bmj.com/content/361/bmj.k2609 is the link to the article which I hope is viewable to the public.
I'm a BMA member and have done online responses to BMJ articles before but don't feel qualified to comment on this one.
In this week's BMJ there are 3 1/2 pages on whether or not prostitution should be decriminalised and if so which model is best.
The Nordic model which many radfems favour where punters are criminalised rather than prostitutes is mentioned but dismissed as not having an evidence base. I'm not sure if this is because there is evidence the Nordic model doesn't work or whether there is just a lack of evidence on it compared to decriminalisation.
There is one rapid response favouring the Nordic model but I wondered if other women wanted to comment and whether or not Julie Bindel was aware of this article?
I favour the Nordic model but couldn't argue about it from an evidence point of view. I just feel men shouldn't be able to buy women's bodies as ejaculatory receptacles and hardly any women make a positive career choice to be prostitutes

Thankyou for bringing this to our attention

I find this sort of language bonkers

"Worldwide, 45-75% of sex workers have experienced workplace violence,"

Workplace violence?

This is NOT a "job like any other" and starting to apply terms to it out of standard workplaces feels like an attempt to sanitise and legitimise what is being discussed, like the term "sex worker" with its massive umbrella is used to cover up and minimise the specific harms that are relevant to prostitution.

The fact that it's always decriminalisation that is called for shows up the lie that it is a "job like any other" - why not legalise it then? Oh yes because H&S etc would mean it was pretty much impossible to actually do the job as it's so risky, body fluids, etc etc

I can't read the whole article as not a subscriber.

I'd make one point:

If it's an occupation that you think should be decriminalised and treated as legitimate employment or self-employment, then answer me two questions:

1. Would you be comfortable writing a job description for the qualities and experience a successful candidate would possess?
2. Would you be happy with your wife, girlfriend, Mum or daughter doing it?

"Worldwide, 45-75% of sex workers have experienced workplace violence,"

Workplace violence?

The vast majority of workers will go through their working lives experiencing zero workplace violence.

Some jobs such as construction industry, oil, fire services are dangerous because of the physical environment they are conducted in but that is not workplace violence.

Those who are at risk of workplace violence are the emergency services who obviously exist to make the world a better and safer place for all of us.

I suppose a small number of bar staff and security staff are at some risk from drunks but anything kicking off in a bar is in public and will be dealt with.

There is no other "job" which not only has that level of risk and which not only serves no useful purpose but is actually damaging to society.

The normalisation of prostitution and pornography bothers me a gazillion times more than trans issues.

Good point Materialist.

There should also be workplace risk assessment done to determine what kind of PPE is needed as well as to identify all other associated risks.

I can't read the full article either. I think it was on MN recently about legalised prostitution in (parts of?) Germany - women getting asked for sex when out shopping with their children etc. and also men asking their cleaners for sex, coming out with lines such as 'if you clean my flat for money, why won't you give me a blow job for money? They're both work'.

Criminalise the punters.

Materialist, that's a brilliant point re PPE/infection control.

Can't see full article either but can see how in a very short space they mention New Zealand three times.

Then there's a giant leap equating full decriminalisation of prostitution to lowering the spread of HIV. There is no evidence whatsoever for this. What they are doing is comparing countries where it is completely illegal like in Africa to countries where it is legal like Germany and saying "look - less cases of HIV in Germany compared to Africa therefore decriminalisation is good for lowering HIV".

New Zealand being heralded as the utopia of prostitution is manipulative. NZ has a very sparce population. It's remote so it's not attractive for sex tourists. Trafficking has likely gone up but there is simply not the population based demand for the services compared to other countries so the outcome of their legal change is completely different to how it is / would be in other countries.

Why aren't they referencing Germany three times? Because they know Germany has had such serious problems with trafficking, other associated crimes including violence so much that they've had to tighten up on laws and regulations making it now very very hard to register as a worker there or set up an establishment for workers it may as well just be illegal.

In Amsterdam it was found 70-80% of prostitutes are trafficked. Forced to work or receive beatings, don't earn enough and you get kicked to the streets, the percentage you pay to your "host" leaves you will barely enough. This is the reality for "legalised" prostitutes. Amsterdam have had to tighten up on laws.

In these countries a job can be as low as €10.

I completely agree that working as a prostitute should not be illegal. Maybe I'm fatalistic but women will always be coerced or bribed into sex one way or another so I don't think being bribed or offering sex in desperation should be a crime.
Regulation of a legal sex trade would be acceptable but in practice it does not work.

I do not believe the sex trade should ever be promoted as a "normal" job (that you do at your "workplace" experiencing violence and rape and risk of contracting std's) because the reality of the work is inhumane and brutal.

I basically support the Nordic Model, but the partial criminalisation model (illegal to run an establishment but not to work in one etc) we have in the UK is good enough.

I find it pretty infuriating that the BMJ is debating the theoretical position of legalising prostitution without any first-hand knowledge of the realities. And by first-hand I mean actual lived experience as a prostitute.

They'd do well to engage with Fiona Broadfoot, who is a fantastic, passionate and articulate survivor of prostitution. She'd wipe the floor with them.

The creeping normalisation of violence against women is really worrying. Cloaking it in banal and bureaucratic language via the ‘decriminalisation’ route makes the real life misery of women invisible.

Is the BMJ lobbied by pro prostitution groups? Pro prostitution lobbies have successfully infiltrated Amnesty, UN and the WHO and closer to home have influenced the Labour Party and the Greens.

The author of the piece Sally Howard is studying Gender Studies at SOAS which at the moment has a general pro prostitution ‘sex worker’ stance, so perhaps that explains her bias in this article.

From my understanding, there is lots of evidence that the Nordic model is safer for the women working as prostitutes, reduces demand and therefore the associated trafficking.

prostitutionresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Swedens-prohibition-of-purchase-of-sex.pdf

www.cnn.com/2016/04/18/opinions/prostitution-nordic-model-peters/index.html

New Zealand’s prostitution policy has been very unsuccessful with increased trafficking and violence perpetrated against the prostituted women.

Julie Bindel has a new book which reports on the reality in New Zealand since decriminalisation:
The Pimping of Prostitution: Abolishing the Sex Work Myth

www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/97760559/new-zealands-sex-industry-model-as-useful-as-a-burst-condom

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/30/new-zealand-sex-work-prostitution-migrants-julie-bindel

Another recent thread on the benefits of the Nordic model

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3257516-Dare-to-hope

Good article showing how the legalisation of prostitution in Australia has not been a success
nordicmodelnow.org/2018/06/24/the-nordic-model-legislation-is-the-only-way-to-end-sex-trafficking/

Services helping people to exit are irrelevant because who needs support to get out of a regular job? Effectively, governments wash their hands of women under legalisation because, according to the mantra, “It is better than working at McDonald’s.”

From the Julie Bindel article. That is so true (well obviously not the mantra about being a prostitute being better than working in McDonald's)

What's wrong with working at mcdonalds?

Most people would rather do that then work as a prostitute, is my guess.

Anyone arguing that prostitution is a job like any other needs to familiarise themselves with the ‘service user reviews’ left at punternet.

nordicmodelnow.org/myths-about-prostitution/myth-punters-care-about-the-women-they-buy/