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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lets talk about equality of outcome

19 replies

outofthebox · 20/06/2018 07:08

Intersectional feminism is simply the way that ONE SPECIFIC ideology surrounding race, gender, crime, drugs, oppression etc. is forced down peoples throats.

But lets talk about equality of outcome.

Do we really want this? Or is it -onward to socialism-?

nb: YES! I'm a woman. Can easilly prove it. If you are someone who destroys a woman with ideas different to your own, what kind of feminist does that make you? (not a good one lol).

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TERFragetteCity · 20/06/2018 07:12

I haven't got 20 mins to watch this...and that sounded like a man talking...what IS your idea and discussion point?

Imchlibob · 20/06/2018 07:20

The you tube link is to a 25 minute mansplain which I have watched the first 5 minutes of but don't have time to watch the whole of.

What is your point though OP?

outofthebox · 20/06/2018 08:14

Handling school drop off.. am happy to come back late afternoon to discuss. So, just so I understand the mansplaining bit- if a man explains something, AND IT MAKES SENSE/I AGREE, it is thrown out the window -because a man explains it and not a woman-?

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outofthebox · 20/06/2018 08:16

Or is it that a man is speaking in a way that bores a woman or is beyond understanding or doesn't use sufficient 'feeling' language vs pragmatism?

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outofthebox · 20/06/2018 08:17

Also- I'm not here to force my point. I do agree with a lot of what is being said- I just want to have a discussion of the outcome topic under the guise of FEMINISM. Because equal outcome is what is being taught in universities these days as the 'feminist' position!

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outofthebox · 20/06/2018 08:33

The concept in political argument (WARNING: POSSIBLY BORING)

Debate about economic issues surrounding equality is as old as civilization—painting: Ancient Greek philosophers Plato (left) and Aristotle by Raffaello Sanzio (1509)

The concept of equality of outcome is an important one in battling between differing political positions since the concept of equality was overall seen as positive and an important foundation which is "deeply embedded in the fabric of modern politics".[10]

There is much political jousting over what exactly equality means.[10] It is not a new phenomenon; battling between so-called haves and have-nots has happened throughout human civilization and was a focus of philosophers such as Aristotle in his treatise Politics.

In The Guardian, analyst Julian Gloverrote wrote that equality challenged both left-leaning and right-leaning positions and suggested that the task of left-leaning advocates is to "understand the impossibility and undesirability of equality" while the task for right-leaning advocates was to "realise that a divided and hierarchical society cannot – in the best sense of that word – be fair".[35]

Conservatives believe in equality of opportunity, but not outcome.[36] In their view, life is not fair, but that is how it is and they criticize attempts to try to fight poverty by redistributive methods as ineffective since more serious cultural and behavioral problems lock poor people into poverty.[22] Sometimes right-leaning positions have been criticized by liberals for over-simplifying what is meant by the term equality of outcome[19] and for construing outcomes strictly to mean precisely equal amounts for everybody. In The Guardian, commentator Ed Rooksby criticized the right's tendency to oversimplify and suggested that serious left-leaning advocates would not construe equality to mean "absolute equality of everything".[10]

Rooksby wrote that Marx favored the position described in the phrase "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" and argued that this did not imply strict equality of things, but that it meant that people required "different things in different proportions in order to flourish".[10]

Libertarians and advocates of economic liberalism such as Friedrich Hayek and Milton Friedman tend to see equality of outcome negatively and argue that any effort to cause equal outcomes would necessarily and unfortunately involve coercion by government. Friedman wrote that striving for equality of outcome leaves most people "without equality and without opportunity".[18]

Analyst Glenn Oliver suggested that liberals believed in "equality of opportunity and of outcome".[36] One liberal position is that it is simplistic to define equality in strict outcomes since questions such as what is being equalized as well as huge differences in preferences and tastes and needs is considerable, therefore they ask: exactly what is being equalized?[16] In the 1960s in the United States, in examining the plight of African Americans locked in poverty mainstream liberal president Lyndon B. Johnson argued for ending policies which promoted segregation and discrimination as well as steps to end "economic injustice" by turning "equality of opportunity into equality of outcome",[37] that is with programs to transfer wealth in varying amounts. Fairness is emphasized—one writer expounding a centrist position wrote "people would neither be left to fend for themselves nor guaranteed equality of outcome – they would be given the tools they needed to achieve the American dream if they worked hard".[38]

There has been cynicism expressed in the media that neither side—including mainstream political positions—wants to do anything substantive, but that the nebulous term fairness is used to cloak the inactivity because it is difficult to measure what in fact "fairness" means. Julian Glover wrote that fairness "compels no action" and compared it to an "atmospheric ideal, an invisible gas, a miasma" and to use an expression by Winston Churchill, a "happy thought".[35]

Social democrats champion greater equality of outcome and opportunities within capitalism, usually promoted through redistributive social policies like progressive taxation and the provision of universal public services.

Socialists often believe in both "inequality of opportunity and equality of outcome", according to Glenn Oliver. They often see greater equality of outcome as a positive long-term goal to be achieved, so that individuals have equal access to the means of production and consumption. Bernard Shaw was one of the few socialist theorists to advocate complete economic equality of outcome right at the beginning of World War One.[30] The vast majority of socialists view an ideal economy as one where remuneration is at least somewhat proportional to the degree of effort and personal sacrifice expended by individuals in the productive process. This latter concept was expressed by Karl Marx's famous maxim: "To each according to his contribution".

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Imchlibob · 20/06/2018 09:06

I'm afraid you are still mostly babbling incoherently and I am unclear what you are trying to say (pasting a long section of an academic text still doesn't enlighten me about what you think).

I am guessing that you believe that all feminists think that equality can only be achieved with equality of outcome? That's not a "given" so why not start by asking whether equality of outcome is more or less important than equality of opportunity? And tell us your own view rather than posting links and quotes to other people's views? Assuming you accept that women certainly don't currently have equality of outcome do you believe that women genuinely have equality of opportunity?

By "mansplaining" I mean I got bored within the first 2 minutes of the explanation of the difference between equality of outcome and equality of opportunity but gave him a further 3 minutes grace to stop being boring and assuming his audience were very very thick and start saying something original or interesting but as that didn't happen I switched off. If there is more interesting substance to the YouTube than a tedious explanation of the difference between equality of outcome and equality of opportunity do feel free to summarise it here but do please also elaborate your own opinion on it rather than just telling us what the maker of the YouTube video thinks.

Imchlibob · 20/06/2018 09:10

NB by "boring" I don't mean "this is too complicated and insufficiently decorated with butterflies and ribbons for my tiny female brain", I mean that I am an intelligent person with a PhD and don't need to be spoken down to like a 5 year old at great length to tell me something I already know.

TERFragetteCity · 20/06/2018 11:42

Also- I'm not here to force my point. I do agree with a lot of what is being said- I just want to have a discussion of the outcome topic under the guise of FEMINISM. Because equal outcome is what is being taught in universities these days as the 'feminist' position!

That is good. What IS your point? Cutting and pasting someone else's point is not explaining your point.

outofthebox · 20/06/2018 18:46

Oh, I was not sure that personal viewpoints were welcome here without qualification.

Having a PHD in science doesn't mean a person automatically understands the quite shocking gender studies ideology. For example, I laughed when I read "The Onion" article regarding the penis as "a social construct" but yet it was taken seriously by feminists.

First, I find Sargon interesting. Jordan Peterson is my absolute hero and although he is wordy and intellecually deep, he nails issues with pragmatism.

My point? My viewpoint is that feminists today are advocating for equality of outcome and I feel that this is a dangerous ideology for many reasons- worthy of discussion. Equality of opportunity is always desirable and worthy of striving for.

And so, feminists are welcome to add their opinions.

I invited the discussion because the OFFICIAL position of the WOMENS MARCH LEADERS is equality of outcome and they will state that a person cannot be a feminist if they do not agree with their strict intersectional platform.

If a feminist does not agree with that platform,this is fine because having independence of thought is a freedom in itself. Just expect to be shunned by 'official' womens march feminists.

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Imchlibob · 20/06/2018 19:15

You are very welcome to post opinions here. Ideally backed up with logical reasoning.

Putting something in capitals doesn't make it true. Even if you provided documentation links showing that a particular organisation holds a particular position on this aspect of feminist thought, that doesn't mean that all feminists have to think the same or they aren't allowed to call themselves feminists. There isn't a hierarchy and there haven't been elections to select someone who gets to speak for and decide for all feminists.

Where is the evidence that it's so called shunning would take place? What would that mean? Who gets to define whether or not someone is a feminist?

I don't know any feminists who agree that a penis is a social construct. Round here pretty much everyone believes that a penis is very much a biological phenomenon.

Anyway, after 6 posts you have almost managed to almost get within spitting distance of nearly making a coherent point. Well done:
My viewpoint is that feminists today are advocating for equality of outcome and I feel that this is a dangerous ideology for many reasons - worthy of discussion. Equality of opportunity is always desirable and worthy of striving for.

OK so if it is a dangerous ideology for many reasons worthy of discussion would you please please detail some of the reasons and start discussing them because we still don't know why you have chosen to come and condemn this stance without first checking how many of us hold to it.

TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 20/06/2018 19:18

For example, I laughed when I read "The Onion" article regarding the penis as "a social construct" but yet it was taken seriously by feminists.

I know of no feminist that thinks the penis is a social construct. Perhaps you are hanging out with the wrong type of feminist?

outofthebox · 21/06/2018 18:37

Right- which is why the article, though submitted as a JOKE, managed to get many positive peer reviews in ACADEMIA which push this crap on YOUR KIDS!!!!! Don't you ppl want to know whats indoctrination is going on at UNI?

Even the about the authors section is hilarious.

Seriously, are there no women who want to confront the intellectual farce that is taking hold of your definition of feminism?

www.skeptic.com/downloads/conceptual-penis/23311886.2017.1330439.pdf

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outofthebox · 21/06/2018 18:40

" we conclude that penises are not best understood as
the male sexual organ, or as a male reproductive
organ, but instead as an enacted social construct
that is both damaging and problematic for society
and future generations. The conceptual penis
presents significant problems for gender identity
and reproductive identity within social and family
dynamics, is exclusionary to disenfranchised
communities based upon gender or reproductive
identity, is an enduring source of abuse for women
and other gender-marginalized groups and
individuals, is the universal performative source of
rape, and is the conceptual driver behind much of
climate change."

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AssassinatedBeauty · 21/06/2018 18:46

I would guess that most women posting here aren't intersectional feminists of the kind that are involved in the Women's March leadership.

It's odd that you are here shouting at us wanting explanations for things that you have no idea whether we agree with them or not.

Imchlibob · 21/06/2018 20:34

I think that I would probably agree that the penis is an enduring source of abuse for women (...) the universal performative source of rape, and is the conceptual driver behind much of climate change

But the penis most definitely is best understood as the male sexual organ, or as a male reproductive organ

and definitely isn't an enacted social construct.

BertrandRussell · 21/06/2018 20:39

Well, I'm baffled. OP-could you précis your view please?

Imchlibob · 21/06/2018 22:34

Believe me we are well aware of the stranglehold of misogynistic redefinitions of feminism and womanhood that are gaining ground in the wider discourse. Mostly, our reply is "bollocks". For a more nuanced discussion why not read some of the existing threads here in the feminism section. You will find a range of views as this is a discussion forum and it would be boring if we all agreed. Find a thread where someone expresses a view that you disagree with and disagree with it politely and respectfully but say why using logic and facts where possible. Or indeed where someone expresses a view you agree with and add a comment saying so, perhaps elaborating a bit more.

As for new threads - I think you have two here and both conversations would be better off somewhere other than this thread. The "is the penis a social construct" thing could get a bit shouty and sweary as people have quite strong feelings.

The other one should start more like:
"I have read stuff from intersectional feminist sources (add link ideally) saying that feminism demands equality of outcomes not just equality of opportunity - is there anyone here who wants to discuss this in more detail? I think that equality of opportunity is more important because (insert reasons). I think focusing on equality of outcomes is dangerous because (insert reasons). I am extremely worried about how (summary of xy viewpoint) is being taught in universities as the "correct" feminist view when it seems like a bigger issue."

Please do start a new thread, filling in the blanks where needed, and I think it will be an interesting discussion.

This thread starts too confusingly for people to participate properly.

LaSquirrel · 09/08/2018 13:12

For example, I laughed when I read "The Onion" article regarding the penis as "a social construct" but yet it was taken seriously by feminists.

You possibly mean the gender-worshipping fauxminists, not feminists.

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