A thought on bathrooms....

[LaContessaDiPlump]

I had a thought about bathrooms and wanted to share it (apologies if its been raised before).

1. Separate bathrooms exist for men and women.
2. Transwomen state that they feel at risk in men's bathrooms, and insist that they be allowed to use women's bathrooms.
3. Women protest at this and are told to pipe down.
4. The end.

Surely in day-to-day life, we're taught to solve such issues differently?

I.e.

1. Separate bathrooms exist for men and women.
2. Transwomen state that they feel at risk in men's bathrooms, and insist that they be allowed to use women's bathrooms.
3. Transwomen are asked why they feel at risk in men's bathrooms. Transwomen explain.
4. Society in general says "It is sad that you feel men's bathrooms are unsafe for you. We will sort that out as you should be able to feel safe wherever you go".
5. Societal steps are taken to lessen the feeling of risk incurred by entering men's bathrooms (may include tackling toxic masculinity [eg]).
6. The end.

I don't understand why we are tied into the first sequence and not the second. Well I do understand why, but it's not very logical. In my job we're taught to focus on resolving the underlying issue, not on just sticking a plaster over it.

Any thoughts? I tried discussing with DH but there's a limit to his interest in topics that don't affect him

I think it is because for many transwomen it isn't about not feeling safe, it is about being treated as a woman. So the gents could be gold plated serving chocolates with security and it wouldn't be good enough.

Because it's women who are supposed to be thoughtful of others feelings and be accommodating. God forbid men should have to do emotional labour.

Women's boundaries are an affront to males who feel entitled to access women irrespective of those women's wishes or feelings.

The world is a sexist, misogynist shithole so the majority side with entitled men who say women's personal boundaries are 'unfair' rather than the women being violated.

Actually your DH appears to explain it well with his disinterest on what doesn't affect him. Transwomen using toilets that are actually for women do not affect the men that will continue to use the men's loos thus society continues to force the misogynist crap that women are the ones who bend and give rather than making men (including transwomen shouldn't need stating ) sorting out their own issues.

It's not about the loo, it's validation, every time

I think that's a bit swingeing, Madja, as from what I understand, 'old-school' transsexuals had to pass the real-life test by using women's facilities and wearing traditionally female clothing before transition.

I have a lot of sympathy with anyone who didn't want to face the stares in a male loo while dressed as a 'woman'. I think Contessa's answer is the right one addresses the problem for the genuine, denies titillation to the randomers but can't see how we get there.

madja agree.... but I do think LaContessa that a third option is available.... rather than tackling the underlying cause (which has to be the most desirable, but I can see why it scares people by being too big.... same darn story)....

Third option - keeping sex-segregated and introducing Unisex alongside (or trans-only) ... ostensibly solves everything whether hostels or bathrooms. Trans only for refuges has to be the way to go - and all importantly for statistics (whether rape, or other crime or pay, or basically anything). Prisons a tougher one.... would have thought Trans wing in male prisons??. Does not give them the validation but DOES meet safety etc requirements ... unreasonable to ask for more!

Society as a whole doesn't want to take steps. They just want women to move over.
I think you're right that it is a men's problem. Up to them to sort it out.

It's the V word (not vagina. Or vulva)
But I'm not sure if typing it is allowed anymore, it might make someone sad.

Because the trans woman wants to use the woman's toilet. But some/most women don't want trans women using the woman's toilet.
How do you get around that?

Because they see themselves as women so should us the women’s. Othering doesn’t work.

smashinggenderchange.wordpress.com/2018/06/17/its-time-for-gender-critical-trans-identifying-males-to-leave-womens-spaces/

It's a much better way of thinking about it and I agree a lot of the debate doesn't focus on getting to the underlying issue.

In your alternative version at point 4 there is another way to look at it. We could also say "What can society do that enables women to feel safe with trans women using female toilets. This would enable women and trans women to feel safe wherever they go."

For some, it is validation. For others, it is a form of oppression and control of women. For the majority, it is for a sexual thrill.

For the record, I do not have a problem with old-school transsexuals using the ladies. They are being affected as much as us by the current aggressive free-for-all agenda.

What can society do that enables women to feel safe with trans women using female toilets

I think you would have to go wider than that and ask 'What can society do that enables women to feel safe with anyone male using female facilities?'

Making every male safe and pleasant to be around would be pretty great.

Even then, there's a privacy issue involved and a smell issue, but let's not go there

All toilets should be unisex floor-to-ceiling walled spaces with good, functioning locks and individual handwash areas.

It’s better for parents with children in tow, it’s better for people with invisible disabilities, it’s better for emptying your menstrual cup, it’s better for safety etc.

I will fight over preserving communal women’s sex segregated spaces for other activities, but toileting is relatively quick and community interaction is irrelevant, unlike in say, women’s gyms or swimming pool change areas.

It’s an expensive solution and it will eat up space, but getting into a women’s toilet for validation purposes will no longer be a thing.

Many years ago I was changing in a cubicle in unisex change at the swimming baths and as I went to flick my wet bathing suit off my foot, I realised a man’s head was poking under the cubicle wall.

I shouted swear words at the top of my voice and he scarpered, but the experience has stuck in my mind, hence the floor to ceiling walls requirement.

No. I don't want AGPs near the menstrual bins or pervs putting cameras in. So betty you are welcome to go in unisex toilets - but I want spaces to go where I can be with only women - I don't want to ask for a spare tampon from a woman in front of a queue of men if I am caught short and if I am followed by a freaky man I want to be able to ask another woman to check to see if he is gone. If I were to have a miscarriage I would not want men to be standing around when the paramedics arrived leaving the door wide open.